tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post1122481531600446648..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: THE GREAT (GENERATIONAL) WALLBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-55801837826779465752008-03-12T11:21:00.000-07:002008-03-12T11:21:00.000-07:00Let me try that again:http://technology.timesonlin...Let me try that again:<BR/><BR/><A>http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/<BR/>tol/news/tech_and_web/article3532832.ece</A>Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-42877584911010104432008-03-12T11:20:00.000-07:002008-03-12T11:20:00.000-07:00a friend sent me a link to an article about future...a friend sent me a link to an article about future trends in the internet by one of the "inventors" of the World Wide Web, Tim Berners-Lee: <BR/><BR/><BR/>http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article3532832.ece<BR/><BR/>(selection)<BR/>Mr Berners-Lee, who invented the World Wide Web in 1989 while a fellow at CERN, the European Organsation for Nuclear Research in Switzerland, would not be drawn on the type of application that the "Google of the future" would develop, but said it would likely be a type of "mega-mash-up", where information is taken from one place and made useful in another context using the web.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-61792880997035243132008-03-12T04:59:00.000-07:002008-03-12T04:59:00.000-07:00good thoughts Steve... I tend to agree with you ab...good thoughts Steve... I tend to agree with you about the word 'church' although some in here will challenge you. I've been pondering the spiritual 'byte' and 'off the platform' concepts for a while. thanks for your contributions.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-39258769732823034922008-03-11T22:07:00.000-07:002008-03-11T22:07:00.000-07:00Wow - that's a lifetime or 5 of great experience t...Wow - that's a lifetime or 5 of great experience to respond to...<BR/><BR/>1. I think everyone worships something or someone. We might learn more about worship by studying other kinds of worship--even idolatry--instead of "God-worship," where many of us have settled/rooted in personal preferences that cause bias-blindness/deafness.<BR/><BR/>2. "Off the platform" is a great relational image/attitude Jesus modeled and worthy of its own post.<BR/><BR/>3. Could a spiritual "byte" be commitment? More important, are spiritual bytes limited to those who publicly repent and confess Jesus as Lord? (Are there spiritual bytes outside of traditional spiritual contexts? If so, can we find and study them?)<BR/><BR/>4. I find "work" and "church" a helpful distinction, too, but as far as terms, I've dropped church, community, and other "traditional" references entirely from regular use. I'm not sure what's most appropriate now or if there is one term that fits every context, but I like "network" the best. What better fits the Digital Age (which overtook the Information Age while most of us slept)? It's no longer about what information you can access but who/what you are connected to. And "network" applies equally well to "church" and "work," to communities of faith and to secular gatherings (politics, social action groups, etc.), I think. You? Seen any mobile phone commercials lately about "the network"?<BR/><BR/>-LA Steve, fruit from the sowings of Steve H, John M, and josenmiami, to name only a few.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04421331905340724426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-79648034902752459142008-03-06T11:07:00.000-08:002008-03-06T11:07:00.000-08:00I kind of butchered my comments above... I should ...I kind of butchered my comments above... I should have said "individualism" and I see among young people that they want community but do NOT want commitment.<BR/><BR/>Don, I get the distincton between "local church" and the "work" from a book by Watchman Nee and a 1971 article by Ralph Winter called "The Two Structures of Redemptive Mission." The Catholic Church has always understood this distinction better than Protestants. Protestants did away with monastic orders such as the Jesuits, Dominicans, etc. that served in the "work" ...and we have struggled with it ever since. In my opinion, the early Methodist movement started out as "the work" while it was still connected to the Anglican "church."Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-35269877541882489512008-03-06T10:11:00.000-08:002008-03-06T10:11:00.000-08:00Josenmiami, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't...Josenmiami, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't think the "work" "church" language is dualistic. As I understand you, the work describes ministry in the context of nonbelievers and the church describes the community of believers. <BR/><BR/>My issue (one of them anyway) is when God and His work are forced into our categories, or defined by our terms. The old saying, "God made us in His image, and we've been trying to return the favor ever since" comes to mind. <BR/><BR/>It just seems to me that being the church, as we've come to define and practice it in some circles, is an unnecessary chore sometimes. It just doesn't seem so laborious in the NT. For instance, I can't see the NT church investing so much time and energy and resources into producing the Sunday morning "worship" experience. I can't imagine them attending useless committee meetings, or fretting over maintenance expenses...the list goes on and on. <BR/><BR/>As for the adversarial comment, I think you Covenant folks have one of the healthiest communities around, especially across generations. I have repeatedly tried and failed to create this kind of dialog with fellow UM pastors. I have great rapport with younger pastors, but very few positive relationships with older pastors. There is a real disconnect between generations and our understanding of ministry, calling, success, "The Church," etc. And for the sake of getting along, the disconnect isn't being dealt with, by any of us, at least not in healthy ways.don woolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185589383343126538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-12360085606928672872008-03-06T10:01:00.000-08:002008-03-06T10:01:00.000-08:00good points Randy and Brian.Randy, have you read "...good points Randy and Brian.<BR/><BR/>Randy, have you read "The Jesus Creed" by Scot McKnight? He traces Jesus's teachings, such as "love God, love neighbor" back to their Hebrew roots. I think you would ike it.<BR/><BR/>Brian, I totally agree with you. If you accept Boshman's thesis about how technology influences structures of worship, you can not only find changes in how the presence of God is perceived, you can also find the downside. For example, with the electronic church, despite the many good things, the people have tended to turn into passive audiences, or spectators.<BR/><BR/>I would encourage us to engage this issue of digitization, not only to anticipate what kind of changes will come and how to effectively use new approaches, but also to anticipate the negative downsides. <BR/><BR/>for example, my guess is that digitization will re-inforce the tendency toward individuality and a lack of appreciation for spiritual authority and wisdom. It will also tend to re-inforce the reluctance to commit. I think can already see it at work now with young people ... they want community but they want commitment. <BR/><BR/>and yet, forewarned is forearmed.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-75768410264270146792008-03-06T08:15:00.000-08:002008-03-06T08:15:00.000-08:00May I please remind us, again, that when we look a...May I please remind us, again, that when we look at the beginnings of the church, in the early chapters of Acts, what we often fail to remember is that they were all Jews! Therefore, the reason that they met the first day of the week (in homes) was because on Saturday (the Sabbath) they were attending services either in the Temple or their local synagogues. They would have celebrated all the feast days: Passover, Pentecost, Feast of Tabernacles, etc. <BR/><BR/>Although we, as a congregation, have come to value our Jewish roots and put a more than average emphasis upon it, I am not trying to "convert" everyone (or anyone) else to that point of view. What I feel that must be continually emphasized, is that if we don't take that context into consideration, then we are missing a big part of their "Christian" practice, and we can be lead to believe that their life was lived differently than it in fact really was. <BR/><BR/>Thus, when we use their practice as a justification for what we do OR don't do in the 21st Century, our argument is weakened, because, we are only telling 1/2 the story.Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-83150464439816649482008-03-06T07:21:00.000-08:002008-03-06T07:21:00.000-08:00On digitization: I think it vital that we not be u...On digitization: I think it vital that we not be uncritical users of technology. (Neil Postman's work has been real helpful to me in thinking about this, and I recommend him highly; Wendell Berry is another alternative voice). Technologies always reduce life to what the tecnology is good at--it quickly becomes a question of whether we are using the technology, or the technology is using us; it's more the latter than we think. I'm not arguing for a "no technology!" approach--that's impossible and unwise. At the same time, I think we need to be very thoughtful and prayerful about technology--after all, it is one of the principalities/powers!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28599912474178133252008-03-06T07:16:00.000-08:002008-03-06T07:16:00.000-08:00No, I didn't feel anyone was being adversarial. I...No, I didn't feel anyone was being adversarial. I'm all for "keeping it simple," but feel we sometimes underestimate the work involved in keeping it simple. And I think our blog does a pretty good job of not forcing us into either/or dead-ends... I do think we occasionally tend to equate "simple" with "better, more spiritual, more faithful" in a manner that I think can get us into trouble: one man's "simplicity" can be another man's "simple-mindedness"!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-90361077341081905612008-03-06T04:51:00.000-08:002008-03-06T04:51:00.000-08:00hi guys, Don, I generally agree with you about sim...hi guys, <BR/><BR/>Don, I generally agree with you about simplicity and integrated. Perhaps you felt that my distinction (borrowed from W.Nee) between the 'church' and the 'work' was overly compartmentalized?<BR/><BR/>Brian, do you feel that our conversation was adversarial? I was actually expected more opposition to my ideas about digitization and the work, and when I didn't encounter any...I got too mouthy and just kept running on.... a little bit of dynamic tension is not bad.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-23196933088671622012008-03-06T04:24:00.000-08:002008-03-06T04:24:00.000-08:00Don, I think I know what you mean--"destroy all th...Don, I think I know what you mean--"destroy all the things that we have added to simply following Jesus," and I wish it were that clear-cut. We have an entire New Testament that represents a struggle to understand who Jesus is and what it means to follow him: divorce? Food sacrificed to idols? Sexual ethics? Worship (1 Coritnahins 12-14)? Men and women? Authority in both the church and the world?<BR/><BR/>I take your point: let's not fight about pipe organs as a required element of worship, let's resist legalism and moralism in all the ways they rear their snaky heads, and let's not neglect the weightier matters of justice and mercy without abandoning lower-level expressions of justice and mercy like tithing/giving generously (I'm not trying to reopen the tithing discussion!)<BR/><BR/>Borrowing Joseph's terminology, as a "work" becomes a "church", we'd be fools to insist that it take on exactly the forms we know and love...and they would be foolish not to learn from their older siblings in the faith (Tradition)...and we would be fools not to learn from the new ways the Spirit gives them to incarnate faithful lives. Let's work to not make it so adversarial a process.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63796335640844158372008-03-05T20:11:00.000-08:002008-03-05T20:11:00.000-08:00Wow, there's been a lot of posting since I last ch...Wow, there's been a lot of posting since I last checked in! Great discussions.<BR/><BR/>As a general response, I think the desire today (for many) is to live an integrated life as oppossed to living a compartmentalized life. (Matt Brennan would use the word dualistic). <BR/><BR/>It just seems that being a Christian in the first century wasn't as philosophically or organizationally complex as it is for us. Obviously they had major issues of their own to deal with, but they were just a bunch of people who loved Jesus, struggling together to live lives that showed it. Church was just who they were as a group. I know that is significantly oversimplifying things, but they didn't seem to be overly concerned with worship formats, meeting schedules, evangelism strategies, programs, etc. The faith spread naturally from one person and group to another. Generally, the apostles heard about conversions after the fact, and sent a team to check it out. The point is, every day people were naturally sharing their faith in winsome ways without any training, or brow beating. As others said above, they just "lived it".<BR/><BR/>Maybe these are my own issues, but I get really frustrated with formulas and the level of complexity that characterizes our individual and corporate lives as Jesus followers. Of course, I am a United Methodist pastor, so there is quite a bit of all that to be frustrated with. :-) <BR/><BR/>Ummm, to try and salvage this as a connection to the previous 70 posts, I think we reach younger folks by holding loosely (and/or destroying as needed) all the stuff we've added to "just following Jesus" over the last 2000 years. <BR/><BR/>my 2 cents, <BR/>Don Woolley, (Jesus Tribe / Pleasant Valley Methodist, Proud friend of Matt Brennan, Patrick and Will Curry, and Michael McCarty II.)don woolleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01185589383343126538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-91719170843078225532008-03-05T18:31:00.000-08:002008-03-05T18:31:00.000-08:00there are a lot of things that are different. Just...there are a lot of things that are different. Just one example is church discipline. check out 1 Cor. 5:9-13. There is a measure of mutual accountability within the local church that is not the same when you are dealing with people who have not yet signed on the dotted line and committed themselves to Christ or to other followers.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-55101883317451694382008-03-05T18:25:00.000-08:002008-03-05T18:25:00.000-08:00jastclsrk, ditto what Joseph said. All your posts...jastclsrk, ditto what Joseph said. All your posts have been interesting and offered a helpful perspective. Just post your thoughts. If they take us a different direction, we're good rabbit chasers.<BR/><BR/>Joseph, thanks for your response. It definitely helps clarify, and shows that you're not just "flying by the seat of your pants", but functioning in a clearly defined paradigm. You're giving us a window into the apostolic mind-set and focus.<BR/><BR/>Could you elaborate on your last sentence about the "rules of engagement"?<BR/><BR/>P.S. I don't want my questions to derail our "digital worship" thread. Joseph's insights are very interesting and important to me, but if it's better for the rest of you, I can pursue this privately with Joseph.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67848958748064841022008-03-05T13:33:00.000-08:002008-03-05T13:33:00.000-08:00Jastclark: please don't worry about posting here o...Jastclark: please don't worry about posting here or getting us off track. I have really enjoyed your contributions and I am sure the others have as well. I had not thought about "protocols" ... thanks for suggesting that. They pretty clearly are social rebels in terms of "church" protocols.<BR/><BR/>I would strongly say that it is the "work" and not the "church" for a a couple reasons. Yes, there are two or three gathered ... but they (or at least most of them) are inquirers ... not yet committed disciples. Some of them don't even believe in God, or at least in Jesus yet... some do...some are in-between.<BR/><BR/>I would see this group is in a "gathering" stage. <BR/><BR/>Scoggins outlines three stages in a new church plant:<BR/><BR/>1) Gathering<BR/>2) Covenanting (mutual commitment)<BR/>3) Reproducing.<BR/><BR/>he does not consider a group to be a viable "church" until they reproduce and have their own indigenous leadership. This group is far from that. I am focused right now on creating an atmosphere where they can all one-by-one eventually experience God and come to a clear place of faith, and commitment to follow Jesus. Until that happens, and they commit not only to the Lord, but to one another, I cannot consider them a local "church." <BR/><BR/>that only leaves the "work" as a category to put them in. Thats why I see it as a useful distinction. The "rules of engagement" are very different in the "work" than in the "church."Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67042353689362192692008-03-05T12:51:00.000-08:002008-03-05T12:51:00.000-08:00Joseph,I just re-read you last post. You describe...Joseph,<BR/>I just re-read you last post. You describe the group and how the Holy Spirit is present in their midst to teach. Then you said, "Of course, this is clearly the "work" so far, and not yet in any sense "the church." However, whenever they become a church...if they do...".<BR/><BR/>When will they become a church? How will you know/evaluate that? Is it possible that what you're defining as "the work" (because of your orientation and gifting, you're seeing an embryo that needs much growth and development), God would call "church"? i.e., Him present where two or three are gathered in His name.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-27942523369175678012008-03-05T12:40:00.000-08:002008-03-05T12:40:00.000-08:00Joseph, thanks for sharing about the Homestead gro...Joseph, thanks for sharing about the Homestead group and how it works. <BR/><BR/>Our small couples group usually arranges our time and place by email (I know that's a bit old-school for many, but it is digital technology.)<BR/><BR/>We gathered Monday evening for the first time in several weeks because of new babies and schedules. <BR/><BR/>Going in I was wishing that we had some continuity to pick up on and hoping that we would not "miss" what God might want to do. (My typical anxiety; I'm learning to relax, but the ability seems to come and go.)<BR/><BR/>These are all committed believers, so the dynamic is slightly different than the Homestead group, but the actual flow and "unstructure" of the meeting is similar. Conversation and people were "all over" for a while, and even eating was a bit chaotic because of the babies' needing to eat, be changed etc. After an hour or so we found ourselves gathered at the kitchen table having one conversation.<BR/><BR/>Without detailing it all, because one individual in the circle opened up a personal issue, we ended up talking about generational sins and curses and later we prayed for two people in the group around those issues.<BR/><BR/>God knew what needed to be addressed Monday night, and he gently and patiently brought us around to it. Mine and Vicki's role was to show up, enjoy our friends (and their babies!), watch, listen, interject comments here and there, and be sensitive during the prayer time. Pretty simple. Nothing to stress out about. Both the issue needing addressed and the ministry needed for individuals emerged from our conversation. That's the beauty of simple, small and "liquid".John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-14318393163906814042008-03-05T09:51:00.000-08:002008-03-05T09:51:00.000-08:00john - i had to smile when you mentioend your son ...john - i had to smile when you mentioend your son in law becuase inthe last couple of years i was asked to be deacon of technology for LifeGate church and have been serving in that forum since then.<BR/><BR/>Josenmiami -it is interesting to me about your "meeting" you held aside form all the discussion of moving off the platform, another component to this could be removing of protocols as i have seen our young people have little protocol in their approach to church, this is obviously another thread but another example of what i mean by protocal is go to a shopping mall in the US and invariably you will see a millenial youth wearing what would best be described as pajamas, they have abandoned a protocol of what is acceptable to be seen out in, your meeting is another example of this, millenials need no or have abandoned any protocol when it comes to a climate of a church meeting, i.e. they could careless about powerpoint or who the said leader is etc.<BR/><BR/>Ok i'll stop this for now since i seem to have an uncany ability to turn these discussions in different directions than they were intended, which also seems to limit posters and encourage lurking.Jastclarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11038492359017548764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-62424611396847251762008-03-05T08:48:00.000-08:002008-03-05T08:48:00.000-08:00hi John,looks like I killed this thread by talking...hi John,<BR/><BR/>looks like I killed this thread by talking to much. Look's like your up, Brian. <BR/><BR/>I'll just add another great example of digitization from our discussion group in Homestead last night. <BR/><BR/>My son John joined us in the study last night for the first time. He has been living in Ohio for a year, and just decided to come home last weekend, and arrived on Sunday.<BR/><BR/>Last night, I was surprised to see the easy familiarity with which he was greeting everyone by name and kidding with them. I didn't even know them myself a year ago, when John left for Ohio. <BR/><BR/>Turns out that all but one or two of the group play an on-line rpg game called <B>World of Warcraft</B>. John knows all of them from the on-line game and has been developing relationships with them while living in Ohio. <BR/><BR/>I also sent them a list of the teachings of Christ by email for them to choose from ... one of them responding back by sending me his Myspace where he has a lot of music, written and performed by himself. <BR/><BR/>We all sit in a circle on a patio ... the leadership of the group rotates around despite their tendency to want to defer (sp?) to me. there is no platform, nor is there a fixed "leader", nor is there a fixed starting or ending time, nor is there a monologic teaching, rather a conversation through which the Spirit teaches using the insights and comments of all of the group as he resides "in their midst"<BR/><BR/>They all text one another on Tuesday nights starting around 8 p.m. to confirm if they are coming ...and if they are bringing anyone.<BR/> <BR/>pretty cool! Of course, this is clearly the "work" so far, and not yet in any sense "the church." However, whenever they become a church...if they do, I doubt that they would ever want to use powerpoint or a sound system, or listen to one person talk for 30 minutes. <BR/><BR/>ok.... since this thread has died down under the weight of my vociferous proliferation of loguaciousness ... <B>Brian, you want to start another discussion? Perhaps about "worship" or something?</B>Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84530980089111769082008-03-04T18:47:00.000-08:002008-03-04T18:47:00.000-08:00Joseph and all, great examples and illustrations o...Joseph and all, great examples and illustrations of digitalization (dig). Ditto all you said about the way our blog functions. Brian, I think it's safe to catagorize our relationship in a very similar way to what Joseph described in his post, not to mention all the others that I would have no knowledge of without this digital space to communicate.<BR/><BR/>My son-in-law to be (wedding this fall to Sarah my youngest), Phil, was just hired by a mega church in AL to be their "digital pastor". That's his title! He is currently revamping their website (From Wilmore, KY where he is still a student at Asbury College until May). Since he bagan working on it in Jan. the church has had four new families contact them who attributed their only contact with the church as the website! <BR/><BR/>The premise of the "liquid church" book is very close to what Joseph is noting. The author sees the liquid church as being a network of believers who are in constant communication through the various digital media and who, therefore, are enabled to "meet" daily, and then to actually assemble or gather in groups of two or three (or any combination) as needed.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-65110531689635573152008-03-04T18:33:00.000-08:002008-03-04T18:33:00.000-08:00ok... I am on my way out the door to go have a dis...ok... I am on my way out the door to go have a discussion with the vampire-tribal group. <BR/><BR/>Brian: perhaps our next discussion thread could be on worship? That is a topic unto itself. <BR/><BR/>digitization: This blog is the perfect example of the process of digitization. <BR/><BR/>Basically digitization breaks things down into the most basic unit...a byte ...or in nature, a cell, which then permits fluidity, transport and recombination in surprising and flexible ways. I am still pondering what the spiritual equivalent of a "byte" is for the body of Christ ... I have some ideas. I am inclined to think that it is where two or three committed followers are gathered around Jesus...<BR/><BR/>however, think about our blog and our friendship. We were both around in the late 80s and early 90's ... but we only became friends recently. 20 years ago, our relationships went from "conference" to "conference" ... with occasional phone calls or letters. <BR/><BR/>Now, we can build relationship through a blog, reply-to-all emails, txt messaging, or Instant Messenger with video cams. If we wanted to we could do even more with podcasts and Youtube. Basically, in this context... we don't need to travel to a conference to spend time communicating. We have moved off of the conference platform...<BR/><BR/>the same is true with some of the younger men, such as Patrick, William or Jimmy. You or me would probably never have had a relationship with them without the digitization effect of technology. <BR/><BR/>It also has an equalizing and democratizing effect. In this blog, a 23-year-old nearly has an equal voice to a 60-year-old apostle/elder/pastor, and they communicate with one another directly in ways that would never have happened before. I get txt messages from young guys in Atlanta, Ohio and Alabama.<BR/><BR/>Another analogy for me is Barnes & Noble and Amazon. Barnes & Nobles came along (like megachurches) and put out of business all of the small neighborhood bookstores (like small community churches under 100). <BR/><BR/>I no longer have time to go to Barnes & Noble, it takes too long to park, go find what I want, or to stand in the information line waiting for someone to help me. I always order from Amazon. Most of them time I order second hand from small bookstores (who knows? Some may only be a one-person operation) that sell used books through Amazon. <BR/><BR/>I told my friend who pastors a Vineyard church of 2000, that if they make their goal to grow to 10,000, they will miss the puck. What they need to do, is to develop on-line internet access, so that 10,000 people can directly access the weekly message, bible studies, chat rooms, find a listing of small groups and events around the city, do instant messaging with pastoral counsel, without ever having to get in their car and drive to the facilities on Sunday. <BR/><BR/>That’s just the technical side of digitization … I think there is a whole spiritual side that I don’t fully understand yet, about making disciples….equipping them like “bytes” and allowing the Holy Spirit to direct them into the digital flow of the Spirit and to send them into whatever context he chooses into all kinds of surprising and spontaneous ways. <BR/><BR/>Last summer, Deb and I spent 6 weeks in Brazil. A lot of people followed along on our blog, our daily activities and updates with photos from the same day. They didn’t only read, they commented, and Deb and I responded. In a sense, a lot of people went with us to Brazil! We met up with our grandkids almost every day on Instant Messenger through a web cam.<BR/><BR/>This is just scratching the surface of what Boshman was referring to as the ‘digitization’ of the church.<BR/><BR/>ok...this went too long.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-19501742772126869262008-03-04T17:28:00.000-08:002008-03-04T17:28:00.000-08:00Speaking of "worship" and "singing", it is pretty ...Speaking of "worship" and "singing", it is pretty well established that a number of passages in the N.T. are the lyrics of hymns and/or liturgical recitations that had developed by the time the N.T. books are written. I am not equipped off the top of my head to list them, and, I'm sure scholars disagree on some, but the fact is that they are there. So, if we're defining worship in the N.T., those should be taken into consideration. How were they used? In what context? etc. Steve, you should be able to shed some light on this from your reading and research.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-26913524301166894262008-03-04T15:25:00.000-08:002008-03-04T15:25:00.000-08:00Oh... I forgot to add Peter fasting on the houseto...Oh... I forgot to add Peter fasting on the housetop, and the five teachers and prophets of Antioch "ministering" to the Lord, whatever that might mean. My guess is that they were talking, praying, and listening to the voice of the Spirit, possibly with some fasting.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-68859362456553472732008-03-04T15:13:00.000-08:002008-03-04T15:13:00.000-08:00Ditto Brian!let me just briefly respond to your co...Ditto Brian!<BR/><BR/>let me just briefly respond to your comment (or question) on worship and come back to digitization later tonight after everyone else comments (hint, hint).<BR/><BR/>I think in all of these areas "church", "work", "Worship" it is important to define our words. There is very little, almost nothing in the book of Acts about "worship" per se... if you use "singing", then you have Paul and Silas singing in jail. If you define worship as "prayer" and "breaking of bread" then there is a heck of a lot...but why not just call it "prayer" and "breaking of bread"? I also like "love" and "obedience" as parts of worship..."love the Lord your God" and Romans 12: "living sacrifice" <BR/><BR/>more later on digitization and the work....Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.com