tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post2032646638012014014..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: ‘wiki’ updates for the church - 17 theses summaryBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-15183537080505363872008-10-15T18:55:00.000-07:002008-10-15T18:55:00.000-07:00My point in asking if there were ways that the chu...My point in asking if there were ways that the church folk and the apartmenters might find ways to connect echoes Steve's point, particularly as Travis feels connected/committed in both spheres. The idea is not to integrate one group into the other, or have one "join" the other. Maybe another way to ask the question, and another possible thesis, would be in the area of what "the unity of the body" might look in the context of our increasingly fragemnted and fragmenting society. Is Jesus intrested in "reforming" how we think, and how we practice, unity? I confess, it was my first, second or third thought...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30974209140424460952008-10-15T18:01:00.000-07:002008-10-15T18:01:00.000-07:00Travis, you have put your finger on one of the dra...Travis, you have put your finger on one of the drawbacks of the emphasis on small, homogeneous groups. One of God's principal ways of working is the transfer of life and wisdom from one generation to another.<BR/><BR/>Hopefully, you will be a bridge -- a faithful man who can receive from these older men at Covenant and be able to impart what you have received to faithful men in the apartment (2 Tim 2:1-2).<BR/><BR/>And that brings us around to spiritual formation again, doesn't it?steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-87089243600402597902008-10-15T15:38:00.000-07:002008-10-15T15:38:00.000-07:00See the thing for me is that I can't quit on eithe...See the thing for me is that I can't quit on either. I don't want to quit on either. At Covenant are some of the most amazing men I've ever met that have walked with the Spirit for a half-century. Their wisdom and experience are invaluable. Then, over at our apartment, people have begun to flock around it and God is moving and it's real. I can't abandon that either. So at this point, I'm going to do my best to be a part of both groups, with probably the apartment getting a little more focus.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108616751801107027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-48981707523882649672008-10-15T13:41:00.000-07:002008-10-15T13:41:00.000-07:00Sorry, some may "make" the commute...Sorry, some may "make" the commute...John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-38719760602162682672008-10-15T13:40:00.000-07:002008-10-15T13:40:00.000-07:00I agree Joseph. Some who make the "commute" Brian...I agree Joseph. Some who make the "commute" Brian mentioned between two groups, but it isn't necessary for everyone to do it. <BR/><BR/>If Travis wants to function as part of both groups, that is fine as long as he has the time and energy, but I agree that it isn't wise to try to integrate the two.<BR/><BR/>Plant the seed of vision to multiply to other apartments rather than be swallowed up into the larger, more established entity.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-82132865842654656152008-10-14T21:58:00.000-07:002008-10-14T21:58:00.000-07:00I think it is a waste of time to try to get the ap...I think it is a waste of time to try to get the apartment dwellers to go to a church where they don't fit. It would be more 'apostolic' to help them come to faith to Christ and learn to "be church" in their own social network (Matt 10-oikos).<BR/><BR/>I say this as a church planter who planted 4 churches and attempted without much success to do exactly what you are talking about. I could not even get my present Tuesday group to fit in with the house church I started two or three years ago. Christian groups very quickly turn inward ... it is better to form new churches in new social networks. <BR/><BR/>This is the apostolic "turn" we are desperately in need of ... we are spending WAY too much energy trying to get the world to come and join our churches ... instead of teaching them how to enter the kingdom.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-10850841397303655172008-10-14T18:35:00.000-07:002008-10-14T18:35:00.000-07:00Cindy and Travis... thanks for keeping this discus...Cindy and Travis... thanks for keeping this discussion going... Cindy, in all these years I never knew what 4-H stood for... amazing!<BR/><BR/>Could be a creed for a new church movement, you never know...<BR/><BR/>Travis, I agree with you about the significance of this thread. I hope we can pursue it.<BR/><BR/>Reading "Life Together", together... can anyone say "spiritual formation"?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-854129692843024722008-10-14T16:48:00.000-07:002008-10-14T16:48:00.000-07:00You will probably be nicely surprised by the simpl...You will probably be nicely surprised by the simplicity of the 4-H pledge. (Ready? oh, I just KNEW there was a reason for my 6 years raising pigs in E Michigan!)<BR/><BR/>I pledge <BR/>my head to clearer thinking,<BR/>my heart to greater loyalty,<BR/>my hands to larger service, <BR/>and my health to better living,<BR/>for my club, my community, my country and my world.<BR/><BR/>(you can stop applauding now)<BR/><BR/>I know, it's hardly theological, but seriously, it has a lot of practicality and depth in it, both individually and corporately. It even reaches outward! I didn't mean to highjack the discussion with 4-H, though. <BR/><BR/>The discussion is great from what I've read - and it's gone a long way in only a week. <BR/><BR/>The thing I would add in response to some of what Travis has been brought up recently is this:<BR/>Because we are a body, and no member or part is separate from the other, neither is anything we do (or don't do). <BR/><BR/>A good sized group of us in my church recently read and discussed over a 6-week period the book "Life Together" by Deitrich Bonhoeffer. We all sort of thought two things - 1) it would kill us to read it because he had a stout German name, and 2) that it would teach us how to "be" the local body.<BR/>First of all, it's not that hard to read, and is pretty short. It just convicts you on so many levels that it is hard to read without being stopped in your tracks every few paragraphs.<BR/>Secondly, while it is all about living together and functioning in a way that glorifies God, there was a lot of emphasis on what we do individually that has an impact on the rest of the body.<BR/>The book talked about how to be believers and how to live a life of prayer, meditation, worship, reading the Word, confession, thanksgiving, and solitude as well as community, ministry, and meeting together for corporate worship, prayer, etc..<BR/><BR/>What a lot of us came away with was the reality that unless I am doing what I know I am called to do (for example, pray, obey the Holy Spirit, give, teach, etc.), the local body does not get the benefit of what God is doing in my life. And conversely, when I do let the Lord reign in my days, the body is edified. <BR/><BR/>It is hard to break the "practical" away from the "spiritual" because the spiritual is also practical - what I do in secret has an effect in public, regardless of whether I can measure it or not. <BR/><BR/>So, yes, the theses are practical, and some of them are real hands-on things to get going, but they're still all related. <BR/><BR/>And you never know who has been praying for a year for what God has been doing in your life or your workplace, or who has been sowing into some unknown ministry idea that someone else will be able to carry to fruition. <BR/><BR/>I would venture to say that any pastors who want to see their people thriving are praying for leaders to come up and just DO what God lays on their hearts to do. And if that changes things for the better, perfect! And if that kind of muddles things for a while, then great - it's a learning experience, but at least they gave an honest try!<BR/><BR/>I will stop now and see how long this is. I am making up for 6 months of being absent in one post, and it's not fair to you guys.CindyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465925613716349619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-24110088044169978292008-10-14T16:24:00.000-07:002008-10-14T16:24:00.000-07:00Is one question: how could we get church folk more...Is one question: how could we get church folk more committed to and comfortable with apartment dwellers (and vice versa)? I think we're in a cultural season where what you're describing is more and more common: followers of Jesus operating in a variety of contexts that, unfortunately, will tend to stay compartmentalized from one another. Makes me wonder what it might look like for us to strive to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace in a niche-market culture...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-43586796081192444082008-10-14T15:40:00.000-07:002008-10-14T15:40:00.000-07:00Brian, you're on the right track. I feel like I co...Brian, you're on the right track. I feel like I couldn't really invite the people I'm reaching out to at work and school to church. Not that Church is bad. It's awesome. I am part of the most amazing community I've ever known. But, they won't see it like that, I don't think. A lot of people around the apartment go to Covenant or another local church, but it's a more comfortable atmosphere to bring outsiders into.<BR/><BR/>I feel like people are not responding not because they have lost interest, but because they have no time.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108616751801107027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-77798923221738346552008-10-14T14:21:00.000-07:002008-10-14T14:21:00.000-07:00Travis, if I understand your question, it's someth...Travis, if I understand your question, it's something like this: you're kind of in two spiritual worlds, Covenant Church and what's happening in your apartment. God is at work in both arenas, but they don't seem to connect very obviously yet, or may seem like they're never going to connect, interface. Your generation may be experieincing "life together in Christ" in a multipolar (having several poles, or focuses) way. Maybe you're a kind of "commuter" between somewaht different "worlds." People from the apartment may be a ways away from wanting to "attend church" (hmm, interesting way of putting that, eh?) at Covenant, and those who are members of Covenant might not find a lot in common with your apartment-dwellers. Am I somewhat on the right track in understanding your question?<BR/><BR/>I realize that for many of us, seeing that a discussion already has 30 or 40 comments is off-putting--just feels like you'll never get caught up. Any suggestions that would make these discussions more accessible and useful?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-7538153149342842962008-10-14T12:16:00.000-07:002008-10-14T12:16:00.000-07:00Travis: the reason we moved on to another post was...Travis: the reason we moved on to another post was because we thought you guys (Pat, Will, JohnMus, Greg, Sarah, Cindi, You) lost interest. As long as you guys keep participating, we will keep talking.<BR/><BR/>Apostolic vs pastoral: obviously pastor = shepherding care toward the flock; apostolic means sent with a mission to new groups... missionary...outward focused... breaking through cultural and spiritual (and sometimes linguistic) barriers.<BR/><BR/>pastoral is focused on the needs of the flock ... apostolic is focused on the needs of the world... the unreached harvest.<BR/><BR/>If you have a bible program ... do a word count to see how many times variations of the roots "apostle", "apostles" and 'apostolic' is used and compare that with pastor(s) or pastoral.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-25752121086360992062008-10-14T12:03:00.000-07:002008-10-14T12:03:00.000-07:00I attend Covenant Church of Mobile and am committe...I attend Covenant Church of Mobile and am committed there. I also have a thriving community surrounding the apartment where I live (the Spirit's been changing people's lives and it looks more like a house church). How do I apply these theses to my life (in both areas)? I'm not sure what other focused questions to ask at this point.<BR/><BR/>Brian, keep prodding me to focus my questions more. It's how I'm learning. I'm not sure what to ask next, though.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108616751801107027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-64848674562786097012008-10-14T10:27:00.001-07:002008-10-14T10:27:00.001-07:00Oh, by the way--the rest of you'ns who've been rea...Oh, by the way--the rest of you'ns who've been reading but not saying much? Now's the time...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-31107191521447572952008-10-14T10:27:00.000-07:002008-10-14T10:27:00.000-07:00Ok, Travis: applied to what? I'm not being coy or...Ok, Travis: applied to what? I'm not being coy or argumentative; the point of emphasizing practical application is we need to know what we're trying to be practical about. So I'm asking a focusing question, not a hostile one, and don't mean to pick on Travis. Anyone want to frame a practical question for us? I think this is what Jospeh was trying to get after in his "theses" exercise.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30601926966403469622008-10-14T09:52:00.000-07:002008-10-14T09:52:00.000-07:00I don't have time to comment thoroughly right now,...I don't have time to comment thoroughly right now, but THANKS Travis for you additional comment.<BR/><BR/>You wrote "...what I would like to see is a move from explaining the historical and theological ideas to practical application in our lives. All of these things need to move from head-knowledge to acts." That's the key issue and that's the rub.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-37851523568880744612008-10-14T09:23:00.000-07:002008-10-14T09:23:00.000-07:00Okay guys. In my opinion we aren't done here so I'...Okay guys. In my opinion we aren't done here so I'm pushing for continued conversation in this area. This thread is so key to where we all are right now that it can't be brushed past to a newer post. I'm not against new posts. Post 'em. But this one is key in a way I'm not sure we know yet.<BR/><BR/>One question for Joseph. You talked about there being a difference between a "pastoral"/"church-centered" focus and a "apostolic"/"kingdom-centered" focus. I've grown up in the pastoral/church focus so I don't need that explained to me. But, could you possibly explain the apostolic/kingdom focus seeing as I have only recent experience in that form. P.S. - This sounds a lot like what Dr. Dow's been saying for years (we should get him on here).<BR/><BR/>John said:<BR/>I really don't have much hope that what already exists can be fundamentally altered. I think God wants the "law of existing ordinances" honored, and obviously what we have now is much better than no church at all. But can't we ev[a]luate how the church should grow and be reproduced?<BR/><BR/>If the above statement is discussed, it could drastically change the path of conversation. This is a question I have thought about a lot.<BR/><BR/>Also, Steve presented two points that he's considering. The first one, "1. Should we emphasize the gospel of the kingdom and look for structures to emerge appropriate to each generation and culture?", is, I think, the more appropriate view to take. I do not think, however, that we can ignore the importance of the apostolic fathers at all. Every follower of Christ that has walked before us (especially those martyred), have something we can take and apply to our lives. <BR/><BR/>In regards to Joseph's and Brian's worries that it was becoming too theologically boring, I need the theology whether I think it's boring or not.<BR/><BR/>But, what I would like to see is a move from explaining the historical and theological ideas to practical application in our lives. All of these things need to move from head-knowledge to acts.<BR/><BR/>In the midst of all this, I think it's so important that we continually keep seeking the Spirit and His will and purpose in every moment. If we do that, we will find that all of these things we are discussing will begin to implement. We were made for Him; in the midst of all this discussion, He still wants our hearts and He still wants to give us new revelation. <BR/><BR/>Keep this up and I hope that whole post wasn't too vague.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108616751801107027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-7778823414269655942008-10-14T06:33:00.000-07:002008-10-14T06:33:00.000-07:00Gosh, some of us really are from the Midwest. Gro...Gosh, some of us really are from the Midwest. Growing up in suburban Long Island, the nearest 4-H Club was in sme strange place like, I dunno, Ohio.<BR/><BR/>No reason not to continue this discussion. Cindy, does "health" become the overarching idea, as in healthy head, healthy heart, healthy hands, or a fourth category along with the first three (heart-head-hands-health)?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-82486891478213610702008-10-14T05:37:00.000-07:002008-10-14T05:37:00.000-07:00Good one Cindi! I never even thought about 4H! Hea...Good one Cindi! I never even thought about 4H! <I>Health</I> is something we vitally need these days.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72578581383127046922008-10-14T05:09:00.000-07:002008-10-14T05:09:00.000-07:00Good morning,I've only read through half of your d...Good morning,<BR/>I've only read through half of your discussion, but had to contribute this, even if it's only in fun. <BR/>Brian said: <I>here's a suggestion for a way to organize and perhaps simplify our theses: heart--head--hands. </I><BR/>I would have to add "health" - as in growth, development, etc.<BR/>And because those are the four "H"s in "4-H". I could quote the pledge for you, but that would get redundant. However, it is a very good one, which may merit the curious to google it. <BR/>Thank you, Joseph, for reinviting me to join in again, and I will understand if you go, "why the heck...?" <BR/>I will read further and attempt to contribute something of more weight later. But now I must go make tents....CindyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465925613716349619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72991838512722156652008-10-13T18:19:00.000-07:002008-10-13T18:19:00.000-07:00I'm not sure where to post now. I wish we could h...I'm not sure where to post now. I wish we could have continued this thread with everyone who was talking at first. I think it could have been helpful. Oh well... <BR/><BR/>I apologize if all my ecclesiological stuff shut down the discussion. I was trying to participate in good faith, but I must have been missing the point somewhere...<BR/><BR/>Steve, you said, "The more I consider the Scripture, the more I am coming to believe the emphasis is first on the relationship between the king and the community he calls and second on the way of life which the king calls his community to live -- a way of life that is the "spill over" of the life of the Trinity."<BR/><BR/>Is this not "church"? It sounds like a wonderful expression of the Body of Christ to me.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-59578044669306952912008-10-13T13:18:00.000-07:002008-10-13T13:18:00.000-07:00Not to cut off this discussion--Joseph, John and S...Not to cut off this discussion--Joseph, John and Steve have all just made substantive remarks that bear further reflection--but I did sneak a new post up, as the conversation appeared to be taking on a particularly grizzled character, if you catch my drift...<BR/><BR/>...besides, Joseph made me do it! ;~)Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-74318326818964325502008-10-13T13:05:00.000-07:002008-10-13T13:05:00.000-07:00Church structure or architecture is an issue, of c...Church structure or architecture is an issue, of course. However, one reason I can't start there anymore (as I used to try to do) is that the New Testament does not put much emphasis on structure as far as I can see.<BR/><BR/>For that matter the I don't think the Old Testament puts that much emphasis on it. In the Old Testament there is structure related to the tabernacle in the wilderness, along with the sacrificial system and the priesthood / Levitical system. David organized these structurally and later Solomon added more structure after building the temple. (Those systems do not seem, however, to be the model for the New Testament churches.) The true heart of the Old Testament, to me, is the story of God the king calling forth a community to love him and to represent him to the nations.<BR/><BR/>Most Biblical theories on structure seem to me to be extrapolations from scripture more than something plainly laid out in Scripture. If the structure is, in fact, revealed, then I have to turn to writings of the apostolic fathers to see what the apostles built and put into motion.<BR/><BR/>The more I consider the Scripture, the more I am coming to believe the emphasis is first on the relationship between the king and the community he calls and second on the way of life which the king calls his community to live -- a way of life that is the "spill over" of the life of the Trinity.<BR/><BR/>This is why I find myself in a bit of quandary:<BR/><BR/>1. Should we emphasize the gospel of the kingdom and look for structures to emerge appropriate to each generation and culture?<BR/><BR/>2. Should we emphasize the gospel of the kingdom and reform our life together according to structure that emerged from apostolic preaching and ministry and that has been written about by the fathers of the first few generations?<BR/><BR/>Frankly, I don't know. So I'm trying to emphasize the common factor: the gospel of the kingdom -- in other words, to emphasize the relationship between the king and the community he is calling forth and the way of life which the king is calling his community to live among the nations.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-21139138158205549372008-10-13T11:22:00.000-07:002008-10-13T11:22:00.000-07:00You're right, Joseph! That's why spirituality wou...You're right, Joseph! That's why spirituality would have to come first, because all those negative characteristics you mention can happen with mission as well. But I think we would agree that only empasizing spirituality can become ingrown and self-centered very quickly. <BR/><BR/>We'll never get things perfect until the perfect One returs. It is true that many before us have tried and failed.<BR/><BR/>But that does not mean we shouldn't try. Our responsibility is to serve God's purposes in our generation. Part of that, I believe, is for our generation to hand something to the emerging generations that is being reformed and that they can reform even further to express the future that God has called us to.<BR/><BR/>I do want to make it clear that I'm not advocating that we try to achieve or "restore" some pristine, ideal New Testament church. That has been tried many times and is futile. <BR/><BR/>What I'm saying is that we should move forward into what God wants the church to be today in this present generation. Personally, I just don't think that what we have today across the board (with obvious exceptions) is serving God's purposes well, and is not the best vehicle to move us ahead into the future.<BR/><BR/>That's why I would make this issue one of the thesis. But I feel like we're gettng into a debate and I don't think that will be helpful for other discussion and for the thread to move forward.<BR/><BR/>I think I've expressed my perspective as clearly as I can, so I don't want to keep going back and forth about it. I don't want to hang up the overall discussion, so I'll try to let it rest here.<BR/><BR/>If we can get a clear concensus about the core issues whether one, two three or more, with or without ecclesiology lets move forward with that.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-47609463683779933842008-10-13T09:34:00.001-07:002008-10-13T09:34:00.001-07:00I appreciate your points ... there does need to be...I appreciate your points ... there does need to be structural reform of the church. <BR/><BR/>However, if you have men and women, deeply surrendered to Christ and walking with true agape love, almost any structure, however bad, will work. Witness the RCC and EO --there is still life there. <BR/><BR/>And the converse is also true, if you--have men and women driven by their egos, and lacking agape love ...the best, most scriptural structure in the world will do them no good. <BR/><BR/>Others have attempted every single structural change we have talked about ... the Plymouth Bretheran, the early Churches of Christ, the whole House Church movment which often turns inward and become reactionary .... changing structures does no good without changing hearts. structure cannot produce life ...only contain it.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.com