tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post2481616876420869377..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Finding Our Way in an Indifferent WorldBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-40667867103580938112010-03-13T16:53:19.475-08:002010-03-13T16:53:19.475-08:00Perhaps I am just feeling ridiculously cynical rig...Perhaps I am just feeling ridiculously cynical right now (haven't had "hopes" once again dashed in one way or other), but I wonder about the relationship of hope and faith...<br /><br />We can have faith, this intangible thing, believing and trusting in God, but what about hope? Is it the same thing? That no matter how often we are disappointed or feel lost we simply continue to have "faith" in "hope"? I'm really beginning to feel that despite faith, hope is an elusive temptress. Maybe it does come down to motivation as has been posted here. What then are the motivations that kill hope or the ones that sustain it? What is the distinction?Prof. Snyderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12177484728039214830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-57207449581954130802010-03-09T20:02:44.158-08:002010-03-09T20:02:44.158-08:00Steve and I have been "best friends" sin...Steve and I have been "best friends" since college. I remember the night Steve called me to tell me that Elijah had been born. I admired and sometimes envied their relationship over the years. I vicariously drew from it in my realtionship with my own son. And I cherish many memories of special times in Elijah's life.<br /><br />There is no way under heaven that I can even begin to understand the anguish that Steve has had to walk through. But it was gut-wrenching for me and my son the night we got the news.<br /><br />It was after midnight, but I knew I had to go to Steve's home to be with him and Patricia. When Vicki and I arrived Steve and Patricia were still at the hospital. The home had filled with their extended spritual family.<br /><br />When Steve walked in the door ahead of Patricia and saw us all there, his first words were, as my memory serves me, "If our faith doesn't work now, then it's not real."<br /><br />Steve still had all that he described above to walk throuh, but that night, when all of us were reeling, those were the strongest words of hope I had ever heard.<br /><br />Steve, you and Elijah are still role models for me. Thanks for how you have continued to sow into my son's life. When you David and I have our annual Christmas break breakfast at Crackerbarrel, it is always a poignent moment for me. Sometimes I feel a little guilty and want to apologize or something that I still have my son with me and you don't.<br /><br />But we have hope... the future is upon us and ever arriving... and in that new heaven and new earth that Brian so eloquently described, we will someday make that breakfast a foursome. And, Oh won't we marvel at all God has done!John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-58183689953097294362010-03-09T17:44:07.553-08:002010-03-09T17:44:07.553-08:00Oh.... Steve,
Billy has told me of the loss you en...Oh.... Steve,<br />Billy has told me of the loss you endured, but I did not hear the fullness of the pain of that loss until just now.<br />We have suffered the pain of loss also, but not in quite the same way as you and yours. The Lord's heart is tender towards those who suffer such unexpected reversals of hopeful expectations.<br />You have my complete and unequivocal compassion.<br />I know you were not soliciting such responses but the courage with which you exposed yourself inspires expressions of the most godly compassion possible. <br />Sometimes we have a hard time living with Him and for Him, but we definetly can not live without HIm. He planned it that Way!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30731783629769731672010-03-09T14:15:18.325-08:002010-03-09T14:15:18.325-08:00elequently expressed Steve! I felt myself drawn to...elequently expressed Steve! I felt myself drawn to your comments and close to your spirit as you were describing those two dark nights -- I can't imagine what you went through with the second time. It encouraging to me to know that I am not the only one who has gone through a dark night of the soul. of course, I <i>"know"</i> that cognitively, but hearing your story brings it home emotionallyJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-60261025382535950752010-03-09T11:11:03.918-08:002010-03-09T11:11:03.918-08:00I agree, Brian, that the most real kind of hope is...I agree, Brian, that the most real kind of hope is rooted in where God is going in history and beyond (eschatological hope).<br /><br />And that hope should be a guide and an anchor us in the present time as well because it gives transcendent meaning to what we are presently experiencing. Sometimes we have at least a sense of that transcendent meaning and other times we have hope that there is such meaning to the degree that we are growing in our personal experiential knowledge of God and also in our cognitive knowledge of God's ways and purposes as revealed in the Bible.<br /><br />I have gone through two major times of losing hope. First, in the mid and late 1980s I went through a time of disillusionment concerning the way many of us fell short in living out the ideals to which we had subscribed and invested our lives. In that case, hope returned when I accepted my limitations and the limitations of others and then went back to seeking to live out those ideals (at least the core of them) to the best of my ability. Yes, there are limitations but the things to which God had called me/us were well worth striving for even if our ability was much less than I had previously thought and also even if I/we were not able to approximate those ideals very well.<br /><br />Second, I struggled with loss of hope for the present after my son died at age 23. He and I had dreamed deeply about working out our faith and callings together. But he died. Hope in God for life beyond this life held me from going into total despair. But what about the here and now? That was the hardest part. But because I believed in God's faithfulness I was early on able to begin to ask God to accomplish more (of those things that my son and I had dreamed of doing) through his death than if he had lived. Only God can do that. And gradually (sometimes very gradually) and painfully (sometimes excruciatingly painfully) I began to reinvest myself in those dreams in honor of my son and for the sake of my daughters and others of my son's generation.<br /><br />Hope has returned -- tested and refined. Most days now I live in awareness of that hope.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-88599094468195097802010-03-09T09:58:25.394-08:002010-03-09T09:58:25.394-08:00how true Brian ... and there is absolutely no doub...how true Brian ... and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the church (or Christians in general) is/are in a "kedging" mode right now. It really is hard work. Not much wind at my back lately ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-657099961045451082010-03-09T06:19:33.638-08:002010-03-09T06:19:33.638-08:00Back to Cindy's comments and questions. I thi...Back to Cindy's comments and questions. I think our hope is, ultimately, eschatological (directed to the new heavens and earth, and to the resurrection of the body). We can live in hope each dark day because we live, or can learn to live, in the light of that Great Day, when not only will every tear be dried, not only will all things be made new, not only will the secrets of all hearts be revealed and everything made clear--we also can rejoice in the hope of sharing in the glory of God, or becoming actual participants in the divine nature (1 Peter 1).<br /><br />One of my favorite images of hope combines the hope-as-an-anchor motif from Hebrews and actual sailcraft. In the age of sail, ships would sometimes be "becalmed"--absolutely no wind, so no forward movement. So you would "kedge off"--you'd lower your anchor into a small boat and then row that boat out in front of the ship, in the direction you want to go, and then drop the anchor, and then haul the ship toward the anchor. Hard work, but forward progress! And you'd do it again and again and again, pulling yourself forward on your hope...<br /><br />...until the wind returned.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-3027066817624133942010-03-07T20:18:21.575-08:002010-03-07T20:18:21.575-08:00"It seems that we all kind of agree what hope..."It seems that we all kind of agree what hope is. The dilemma that we all face is, how do we go back to real hope when we've lost or misplaced."<br /><br />What do we have to say to Cindy C (and others who identify) about her dilemma?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-86278985855974216842010-03-07T18:01:31.401-08:002010-03-07T18:01:31.401-08:00Great observations Cindy C. Thank you for your he...Great observations Cindy C. Thank you for your helpful contributioin to the thread. <br /><br />Btw, I read the blog for the same reasons you express. Plus imo it's as close to real fellowshp and dialogue as you can get in cyberspace.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-45380538985294693212010-03-07T16:16:11.540-08:002010-03-07T16:16:11.540-08:00Cindy,
You are incredibly profound!Cindy,<br />You are incredibly profound!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-4422347497653385262010-03-07T16:13:10.917-08:002010-03-07T16:13:10.917-08:00Brian,
Oh!!!!!!!!!! please don't apologize. I...Brian,<br />Oh!!!!!!!!!! please don't apologize. I took no offense, sincerely, I was very flattered that you actually and really understood my comments and intentions. Thank you!<br />We are on the same page but perhaps you have read the last paragraph and I am still at the top of the page. No matter, I agree with your response and your reaction; they are both vital, life giving and full of Hope.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-2971646790527151032010-03-07T15:56:25.265-08:002010-03-07T15:56:25.265-08:00Hope you can believe in ...<i>Hope</i> you can believe in ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-18420593177382890612010-03-07T15:41:30.860-08:002010-03-07T15:41:30.860-08:00Sincere apologies, Laurel. I didn't mean to b...Sincere apologies, Laurel. I didn't mean to be critical, and agree that we agree. I think I was reacting rather than responding: "I believe in Hope" can be a Biblically-grounded statement, or a therapeutic expression of postive feelings towards the future. You intended the first, I think, and I was responding to the second.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-37855675698968034532010-03-07T08:38:55.547-08:002010-03-07T08:38:55.547-08:00You guys are so funny. :) Again we've discove...You guys are so funny. :) Again we've discovered, sex sells! Let's see if I can bring it back around....<br /><br />I just read through your posts and have enjoyed the commentary. I also have moments of feeling so uneducated when I hear you discussing great figures and events in history. <br /><br />Much of what I enjoy about these discussions is the fact that it's so much more intelligent than the short clips of other dialogues in formats like facebook or twitter, where people don't even care if they have no logic, grammar, or spelling. Here I feel like I could be learning, instead of getting dumber.<br /><br />It seems that we all kind of agree what hope is. The dilemma that we all face is, how do we go back to real hope when we've lost or misplaced it?<br /><br />I think that what was said about when our hope is actually replaced by a sense of entitlement was excellent. When I feel entitled to the thing I had hoped for, and then don't get it, I turn it into a pity-party. Just call me Eeyore. And we all know that is the opposite of anticipatory hope. <br /><br />Which, actually, has the same effect as lust. What is it that's written in the little book of James? You want, but do not have, so you kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. <br /><br />James puts it down to motive: you don't receive it because you ask with wrong motives. <br /><br />When we hope, what is our motivation?CindyChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11465925613716349619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-70270182238657893822010-03-07T07:18:39.992-08:002010-03-07T07:18:39.992-08:00"May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God ou..."May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father encourage you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say. God loved us and through his grace he gave us a good hope and encouragement that continues forever" (2 Thessalonians 2:16, New Century Version)<br /><br />I've been contemplating this verse. Thought I would share it.<br /><br />Laurel, I don't think Brian was "picking on you". Your point is well taken, but so is Brian's. I want to comment on his point.<br /><br />For a believer our hope continues after this life. But many think that what lies ahead, although good, is somehow disconnected with present, earthly reality.<br /><br />Fact is, God will create a new heaven and a NEW EARTH. Our future is not to be disembodied spirits sitting on a cloud wearing a white robe and playing a harp.<br /><br />I think the devil invented that version of heaven, so that most people wouldn't want to go. Just how long would it take you all to get bored if that's what heaven is? <br /><br />A while back one of my students asked me if heaven would be like an eternal chapel service. I wanted to tear my clothes! If that's his vision of heaven, what would make him want to go? We have good chapels at LCA where I teach, but sitting there in that theater seat for eternity? Please, Lord, say "No"!<br /><br />And he has! I believe [hope] that in the New Creation we will have productive, creative work to do. Work without stress, distraction and competition. Work as it was meant to be -- like Adam and Eve caring for the garden and filling the earth with offspring -- before the Fall.<br /><br />I hope that I will get to take my Dad on the fishing trip that I had dreamed of but never got to take before his death.<br /><br />I hope that we will have real relationships with real people, both whom we know now and whom we will meet then. Relationships uninhibited by self consciousness, shame, guilt and hidden secrets. Relationship with Jesus and the Trinity as we have never known, and can not now envision or imagine.<br /><br />OK I'm remembering Brian's gentle reminder about length. One final issue: I know based on our last discussion that many of you are wondering about "no marriage". What about sex in the new earth? Maybe that's a good topic for a discussion thread: "Escatalogical Sex" or "Sexual Escatology" -- or maybe "The Sex of the Future". <br /><br />Ed if we can somehow tie a discussion to SEX, we can gurantee a catalytic interest for us all!John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-9642262762677705712010-03-06T17:29:22.235-08:002010-03-06T17:29:22.235-08:00Hey Brian,
I am not sure why I was singled out as ...Hey Brian,<br />I am not sure why I was singled out as the object of your commentary. It seems to me after reading your very compelling testimony of what hope means to you that you and I agree completely. <br />My offering came from Rom 4:18 which has imposed a life changing dynamic for me, that Abraham, hoped in hope," my paraphrase, basically when he had nothing else to "believe in, he Hoped." It is the most wonderful safety net I have experienced when I am wavering in faith for my hope issues.<br />I think we agree on many levels.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-85538911042562896902010-03-06T16:27:17.028-08:002010-03-06T16:27:17.028-08:00Not to be picky with Laurel: I don't believe i...Not to be picky with Laurel: I don't believe in Hope, I have hope because I trust Jesus for the future... we should remember that God's view of "the future" is far larger, more extensive, more expansive, than ours. God is heading to the resurrection of the body and the new heavens and new earth; I'm so focused on sex, money, comfort, not dying, etc. We are creaturs of and in time, so our 70, 80, 90 years (or whatever) seems like a long, long, long time to us, especially when we are in deep doo-doo of some kind. HOwever, I think we would do better if we regularly reminded one another that, compared to eternity, those 70+ years are less than a dot. <br /><br />This is not arguing for a withdrawing, pie-in-the-sky-by-and-by piety. Because we are grounded in that Great Reality (the New Creation), we are empowered to live differently here and now.<br /><br />Of course it isn't easy! Hope is hard work!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-81121060072127103482010-03-06T10:31:51.614-08:002010-03-06T10:31:51.614-08:00Is there a relationship between hope and contentme...Is there a relationship between hope and contentment? <br /><br />Is it possible that our hope is differed and we get heart sick and disillusioned because we believe that we deserve a good sex life, a happy marriage, a long healthy life, financial security and prosperity? <br /><br />When our hope and desire for these things becomes expectation and entitlement, we are setting ourselves up for disappointment and discontent, which ultimately torpedoes our hope.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-41995058043601024292010-03-05T16:44:56.980-08:002010-03-05T16:44:56.980-08:00I believe in Hope.I believe in Hope.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-5258598390526505792010-03-05T16:11:05.479-08:002010-03-05T16:11:05.479-08:00see Ed? We are not doing too bad...this is the 40t...see Ed? We are not doing too bad...this is the 40th comment. We just had to be patient.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-64328080127510857402010-03-05T16:10:24.243-08:002010-03-05T16:10:24.243-08:00reading Parables of the Kingdom by Robert Farrar C...reading <i>Parables of the Kingdom</i> by Robert Farrar Capon last fall ministered mega-doses of hope to me ... but it was not so much hope <i>in</i> this present life as it was ultimate hope beyond my life ... in the inevitable triumph of God's kingdom.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-87857238230167167982010-03-05T16:02:38.264-08:002010-03-05T16:02:38.264-08:00I've been following along. Just haven't ha...I've been following along. Just haven't had anything substantive to say on this topic.<br /><br />I do know that in the biggest crisis of my life (so far) by the grace of God I did not lose hope — at least hope for the age to come. For a while I often felt ready to give up on life in this time and space because of the emotional pain and loss I was experiencing. And yet in the worst times I was held by hope (hope is an anchor — Heb 6:19), hope in God's ultimate goodness and faithfulness, hope that this time and space is not all there is for the son whom I had lost or for me either.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-23760081949889175372010-03-05T14:08:58.993-08:002010-03-05T14:08:58.993-08:00"Holy Roman Empire" -- that title alone ..."Holy Roman Empire" -- that title alone should be a clue that something was amiss.<br /><br />As Joseph said, Savnarola and Calvin have probably spent immense time together, now that they're in the Lord's presence -- and not because they had to!<br /><br />John, good point. I don't want to create a straw man by focusing on semantics. Like most other biblical truth, there is obviously mystry and ambiguity here.<br /><br />My thought would be to hold your desires/hopes loosely because they are subject to change. Don't let them become a sense of entitlement that tries to manipulate God by having the attitude, "God if you don't make this work out the way I want/expect, then I'm going to really be upset with you, and my faith may be permemently damaged." <br /><br />Be willing for God to mold your desires into desire for him and his Kingdom, and you won't go wrong. Instead of seeing his timeing as "a bitch" you'll look at it and be amazed!John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-9645925003686482882010-03-05T13:47:11.408-08:002010-03-05T13:47:11.408-08:00I imagine they already have.I imagine they already have.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-66238110613236552672010-03-05T10:46:16.136-08:002010-03-05T10:46:16.136-08:00But, our enemies will, for their own purposes, dis...But, our enemies will, for their own purposes, disguise themselves as friends. They know how to prey on our disappointments with God and each other. We may prefer, for a time, the uncomfortable and precarious friendship with the enemy rather than the friendship of our own who befriend us now but later may abandon us. Jesus had to confront and forgive both and- will we forgive those who will not remain friends based on the current understanding and standard of righteousness and also those who pretend to be friends but betray us and who find it inconvenient to identify with us.<br />Does this reality of relationships destroy hope? Yes, but if we follow Jesus' example, then....?<br />I am sure that He is on our side, all of us. But are we on His?<br />I think that Savanarola and Calvin will be made to spend immense amounts of time together in heaven.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.com