tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post3009720727369155033..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Mixing MetaphorsBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33424431545756199342009-07-30T06:07:04.242-07:002009-07-30T06:07:04.242-07:00Here is another metaphor,
How about church as fr...Here is another metaphor, <br /><br />How about church as friendship? This could almost be called a Starbucks metaphor. Two or three friends meeting at Starbucks for a coffee- or perhaps to sit outside and smoke a cigar (me and Dr. Sam).<br /><br />Jesus said that whenever two or three would get together in his name, he would show up. Neil Cole, the author of the Organic Church, defines church as two or three people gathered around the presence of Jesus. The critical, non reducible element is the presence of Jesus. Without his presence, there is no church.<br /><br />Jesus said in John 15, I no longer call you servants but friends. You are my friends if you do what I have commanded you. This goes back to the blog article that we read called “Friends, and friends of friends.”<br /><br />A beautiful scripture picture of this is the two disciples walking together on the road to Emmaus. Two friends on the journey in his name and he shows up to accompany them. His presence is revealed in the breaking of bread over a meal.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84324218320206745552009-07-28T05:33:00.994-07:002009-07-28T05:33:00.994-07:00Steve and I agree far more than we disagree ... an...Steve and I agree far more than we disagree ... and even our disagreements are almost always illuminating.<br /><br />by-the-way, I posted a new topic.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-6153455566051355352009-07-28T03:54:55.462-07:002009-07-28T03:54:55.462-07:00I didn't take your comment as arrogance, Laure...I didn't take your comment as arrogance, Laurel.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-51475641597129036232009-07-27T15:46:47.768-07:002009-07-27T15:46:47.768-07:00I didn't mean to sound so arrogant, thanks, St...I didn't mean to sound so arrogant, thanks, Steve.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-20881702676956216702009-07-27T14:26:53.634-07:002009-07-27T14:26:53.634-07:00Thankfully, you don't have to stand between us...Thankfully, you don't have to stand between us, Laurel. We're both on the same side -- just have different assignments. And we're on your side too-- HIS side.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-88767918078759848242009-07-27T12:03:16.872-07:002009-07-27T12:03:16.872-07:00I am not a courageous soul and certainly not brave...I am not a courageous soul and certainly not brave enough to stand between two men who are full of faith and glory. But, Joseph and Steve, the work we do is not either or, but both-and. The Kingdom of God is a huge place, we may not find each (ekklias) other (the evangelized) for many years, or maybe a generation. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to unite the fruits of both gifts and offices.<br />Aren't you glad?!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-66861369828263549202009-07-27T05:35:56.507-07:002009-07-27T05:35:56.507-07:00in other words, to distinguish between the local c...in other words, to distinguish between the local church and the work. THANK YOU ... after I don't know how many years of repeating myself, someone finally agrees with me on this piont. <br /><br />I have a lot more clarity on the evangelistic assignment ... than the 'governing' or 'assembling' assignment: it just keeps getting murkier and less and less clear for me.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-48243682859239655772009-07-27T04:42:43.345-07:002009-07-27T04:42:43.345-07:00I'm "thinking out loud" here, trying...I'm "thinking out loud" here, trying to respond to your response, Joseph.<br /><br />Seems like in "evangelist" mode, Jesus often invited people to the "kingdom party" -- and apparently it wasn't too unusual for him to go to their "parties." (I was reading about that this morning in Mark as translated in the Message.) Even his disciples didn't fast while the bridegroom was present -- the "party" was on.<br /><br />But he did frequently take the twelve and possibly others (like the 70 (Luke 10) and the women who followed (Luke 8) away from the "party" atmosphere so that he could share more deeply with them. And there was a very different responsibility for them after his resurrection and ascension.<br /><br />The LIFE God's people are called to while we await Jesus' return appears to be one of "partying" (rejoicing, leaping for joy) in the midst of suffering--as in 1 Peter and Philippians, for example. It is to this sort of "party" that we are invite people. (Thinking like this makes me think literally about what is going on with you and Debbie, Paul and Rebecca, Michael and JoAnne). That is one part of the LIFE of God's people.<br /><br />Out of those who "party" with you, aren't disciples identified and trained?<br /><br />And from time to time the disciples need to assemble as the "ekklesia" -- that is, the body of Christ (of Messiah}. 1 Corinthians 11:18 intrigues me "...when you come together as church..." (ESV). A more literal translation would be ...for you all coming together in the assembly [ekklesia].... That statement is, of course, set in context of 1 Cor. 11-14 which all seems to address issues specifically related to the assembly [ekklesia] of God's people as the body of Messiah, i.e. the body of the governing authority of heaven and earth.<br /><br />What's the point: to distinguish the lifestyle of God's people from the evangelistic assignment of God's people from the governing assignment of God's people.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-81111977399972882752009-07-26T08:15:39.007-07:002009-07-26T08:15:39.007-07:00no, thats good Steve. I wonder how that would chan...no, thats good Steve. I wonder how that would change things pratically in the contemporary north american church if it were more consistantly applied? currently the church is more of a provider of religious services to spiritual consumers. <br /><br />I feel like I am nearing some breakthroughs with regards to some kind of 21st century spiritual community that allows religious pluralism within it, but encourages the pursuit of truth. We probably had 40 or almost 50 people at our party last night ... mostly under 32 or 33. The majority are some kind of truth seekers, and followers of Jesus were sprinkled among them like salt. <br /><br />I wonder how your analogy of a government assembly might work in this situation?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72129291852160712882009-07-25T17:54:02.988-07:002009-07-25T17:54:02.988-07:00The metaphor I'm not hearing here is the one t...The metaphor I'm not hearing here is the one that may be closest to the meaning of "ekklesia." I've hesitated to bring it up because I don't think it "rang" with most of you in past attempts.<br /><br />But in Greek culture the "ekklesia" was the governmental assembly of the city/state, consisting of all the actual citizens. I think "people of God" or something like that would be a better "big picture" word. Building on the metaphor of a governmental assembly: "ekklesia," then, is the citizens of the kingdom (i.e. the people of God) in a locality gathered together to do the kingdom's business on earth -- especially to declare on earth what is being said and done in heaven through prayers, proclamations, and sacraments (in other words, to bind and loose). <br /><br />The Old Testament in a number of places talks about God's council in the heavens -- "the council of the mighty," it is sometimes called. The earthly "ekklesia" is supposed to represent on earth the council of the heavens. Some Patristics scholars even say that, in the first few centuries, there was a specific seating arrangement in the meetings of the "ekklesia" that was meant to image that heavenly council.<br /><br />You'll probably wish I'd have just stayed out of the discussion, but I think this has very practical implications for what we should be and do.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-35561435603815963872009-07-25T17:27:45.670-07:002009-07-25T17:27:45.670-07:00Ah, the mystery of Christ and His Church... Bride....Ah, the mystery of Christ and His Church... Bride. It's interesting to add to the mix that, although, God is neither masculine nor feminine (both/and, and more); Jesus is masculine and does have a (human) body. No particular point, just an observation...<br /><br />Brian, I trust that God's grace and Spirit are present, deeply in your time with your family of remembering...John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-81534389846634240192009-07-25T10:33:44.982-07:002009-07-25T10:33:44.982-07:00Joseph,
Thanks for your observation, it made me la...Joseph,<br />Thanks for your observation, it made me laugh again. You are right of course, however, the fun of metaphors is that they seem to posses a power that affords us the opportunity to apply them to one particular situation in a variety of ways. I really do see you as both. We are not limited to natural laws in the spiritual realm. Thus, my metaphorical language dissolves into something...else?<br />Brian,<br />Our daughter Mary and granddaughter Iva live in Asheville. Is your family from there? It is one of my favorite cities. <br />I am so sorry for your grief and pain. We'll all be thinking about you as you and yours remember your dear mother during this ceremonial tribute.<br />"Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." I guess the Lord could not live without your mom any longer.<br />David,<br />Have we really lost you? I agree with Joseph, please suggest something that interests you. I think all of us would agree that we need some new voices and perspectives. We could keep talking ad-nauseum about anything if "you all" don't interject. Please, interrupt and redirect us. Please!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-42308733431594185322009-07-25T06:35:26.515-07:002009-07-25T06:35:26.515-07:00oh Sorry David ... we are just throwing out ideas ...oh Sorry David ... we are just throwing out ideas about scriptural metaphors (and perhaps some unscriptural ones) for the church, such as the church as a family, the church as a temple or building, the church as a plant (1 Cor: Paul planted, Peter watered but God gave the increase), the church as an army ... etc.<br /><br />You can change the topic if you want, if there is something else you would rather talk about.<br /><br />jhJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-46571952580450991872009-07-25T06:10:01.334-07:002009-07-25T06:10:01.334-07:00joe, this topic has simply lost me - so i'll h...joe, this topic has simply lost me - so i'll have to be content to just read the comments.davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01492106276915640809noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-10312210872564673192009-07-24T16:34:10.237-07:002009-07-24T16:34:10.237-07:00I like that Brian, "undefined" spiritual...I like that Brian, "undefined" spirituality. I can use that with a lot of people I know. I'll be praying for you, and praying that God will give you eyes to see what he sees ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72603787742847541762009-07-24T16:18:01.949-07:002009-07-24T16:18:01.949-07:00I'll be "quiet" for the next few day...I'll be "quiet" for the next few days. Kathy and I head off to Asheville, NC, tomorrow for my mom's memorial service. She died (at 82) this past May, just nine weeks after my dad's death (at 86) in March. They had been married for more than 61 years, and had lived in Asheville for the past 39 years. So, we not only say good-bye to mom, we also have to finish the task of closing up their home. <br /><br />The good part is that all my family--my two sisters and their husbands, along with our three kids and their spouses, along with Kathy and I, will all be together in one place at the same time; how often will this happen?--and the bad part is the reason for this gathering: the end of a world. But, in the words of the Book of Common Prayer, we grieve "in the sure and certain hope of the resurrection." My sisters and their husbands are of "undefined" spirituality, as was the case with my folks, so this will be an ... interesting... time for us all. Al I mean by "undefined" is that I have no idea how to "place" them in relationship to the Lord... not that it is my job to do that!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-42129790423032427552009-07-24T10:48:13.361-07:002009-07-24T10:48:13.361-07:00I guess its down to us 3 lately ... JOhn is busy p...I guess its down to us 3 lately ... JOhn is busy painting a house and I don't know what happened to Steve (or Robert, Michael, Don, David, Patrick or William).<br /><br />I think you have a good point Laurel. There are lots of parrellels and applications: the seed of the word, spiritual DNA, the importance of relationship and the power of Divine love. Although, I think you are stretching the analogy a bit to have me both "pregnant" and "impregnating" at the same time. <br /><br />The faith is "caught" more than it is "taught".<br /><br />Here are some relevant scriptures:<br /><br />1 Peter 1:22-24 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. <br />James 1:21- Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls. <br /><br />Matt 10:40: "He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-27510680226690574712009-07-24T09:15:03.780-07:002009-07-24T09:15:03.780-07:00Joseph and Brian,
You guys made me laugh out loud ...Joseph and Brian,<br />You guys made me laugh out loud and there was no one but the Lord to hear me.!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33787299591002852752009-07-24T08:57:02.406-07:002009-07-24T08:57:02.406-07:00The idea that all of creation is "feminine&qu...The idea that all of creation is "feminine" with respect to God's "masculinity" (and yes, I know that God is not "male," doesn't have a body, etc.) and that sexual love has been understood, by both Jews and Christians, as one way to think about God's relationship to his people, both corproately and individually (and yes, we all understand that we are not talking about "having sex" with God). The Song of Songs was the most popular book of the Bible for nearly a thousand years, and was read and understood along these lines.<br /><br />The point? Laurel's point is well-made! We can either pursue this metaphor a bit further (hoo, boy, can't believe I'm saying this), or develop another...<br /><br />The church as an insane asylum?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-74354724986011371062009-07-23T18:55:58.948-07:002009-07-23T18:55:58.948-07:00DAMN girl ... we should have invited ladies in her...DAMN girl ... we should have invited ladies in here a long time ago. What do you want to bet that the readership of this blog is going straight up!<br /><br />I'm looking for my best "pregnant" picture to put on my profile... I think I am 8 and 1/2 months.<br />;DJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-75614279366904210502009-07-23T16:07:05.457-07:002009-07-23T16:07:05.457-07:00Okay Joseph,
So you don't want say anything th...Okay Joseph,<br />So you don't want say anything that will offend someone. This is evidence of your comfort zone and we certainly respect that. I don't think any of the participants in this particular blog are easily offended. The purpose of the blog is to express raw offend-able material in a safe environment. In fact, it may not be possible to offend its participants.<br />So, I am going test this theory.<br />Using the impregnating metaphor, let's take it to the max. Let's all get pregnant. Joseph is, he is definitely with child. He invites a lot of potential spiritual sperm recipients to his house every Tuesday night for the purpose of spiritual copulation. He never knows who is going to "connect." He is available, in the most respectable modern terms. He has made himself vulnerable and available for spiritual reproduction with whoever. I know this seems a bit vulgar, but does not evangelism have the same humbling attributes? We must do whatever with whomever for the sake of the Kingdom.<br />Joseph, please forgive me if I am misrepresenting you.<br />This is my best effort at responding to John's, Brians, and Joseph's comments.<br />What are your thoughts?Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-14609748972358014082009-07-23T13:51:22.179-07:002009-07-23T13:51:22.179-07:00Maybe "Israel" is a metaphor, as well as...Maybe "Israel" is a metaphor, as well as an historical and spiritual reality? God chooses Israel out of all the world, but in fact is choosing them for the world, to bless all the world "through Abraham and his seed." So Israel one the one hand doesn't "fit" into the world very well they won't worship those idols, won't "mix" with the not-yet-human Gentiles, insist on various "identity markers" (e.g., sabbath, kosher)that the rest of the world finds bizarre ("'Don't sow you fields with two kinds of seed'--what is the deal with that?")... in order to fulfill her calling to be FOR the world, Israel actually has to stand AGAINST the world in a number of ways...<br />... and the huge irony, if that is the right word, is that Israel, rather than being part of God's solution-rescue for the world, ends up being part of the problem along with the rest of the world! (Parallels with the church are painful, eh?)<br /><br />But God never gives up on "Israel", he does not go to Plan B, he remains faithful to his covenant promise, fulfilling Israel through Jesus, the one-man-Israel... hmmm, there may be more here than I realize!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-80686866339866447342009-07-23T05:44:49.776-07:002009-07-23T05:44:49.776-07:00I'm not going to touch the impregnation metaph...I'm not going to touch the impregnation metaphor lest I say something in jest that might offend. :D I will say that I believe that human sexuality has a strong metaphoric connection with divine spirituality -- perhaps that is why evil tries to twist it so much.<br /><br />Going back to the "mobile church", in response to Brian's clarification, I realized that I was not using a metaphor--I was being descriptive. I'm not sure there is a scriptural metaphor for apostolic workers as one facet of the "church" unless it is "lambs being sent out among wolves" (Matt 10?)<br /><br />Perhaps a modern metaphor would a tactical team-strike force; paratroopers parachuting in behind enemy lines -- what else? -- shunkworks, think-tank, carriers of viral infection; two college kids doing an entreprennueral start-up business venture; doctors without borders; revolutionary cells; or better yet, moving underground formentors and trainers of revolutionary cells... Ambassadors at large ...<br /><br />none of them quite do justice to what Paul and Silas were doing in Philipi ... and later what Paul and company did in Ephesus. I wonder what Old Testament "types" prefigures the apostolic? Perhaps Joseph in Egypt? Abraham on a journey to who-knows-where? David and his men on the run and hiding out? Jacob starting a family agri-business? Daniel enrolled in magic 101 at Babylon U.? Nehemiah being "sent out" to rebuild the walls in Jerusalem.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-44638750632047799462009-07-22T18:56:34.071-07:002009-07-22T18:56:34.071-07:00I think Brian's question is directed to all of...I think Brian's question is directed to all of us, not just me.<br /><br />Laurel, the Lord has allowed me to nurture many "adopted" children of the Kingdom -- a few of them babies.<br /><br />The dead ones are the "beautiful visions" I have had a few times over the years. Interestingly, although the Lord doesn't let me birth them, or I try and they die, it seems that many times they get birthed by others. Sometimes I'll hear of or see something functioning powerfully, and realize that I had envisioned that very thing, although usually on a smaller scale. Instead of doing it through me, the Lord used someone else to do it more powerfully. In fact, come to think of it, what Joseph is doing right now is one of those "dead" visions. Ironically, Joseph was a young men 30 years ago, who God gave me to care for and steward for awhile.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33209281492688187702009-07-22T17:03:39.300-07:002009-07-22T17:03:39.300-07:00Brian,
Aren't we the worker bees or the worker...Brian,<br />Aren't we the worker bees or the worker ants of the Kingdom? It seems like you're saying: "What's love got to do with it?" It has everything to do with it! <br />Please elaborate. Please?Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.com