tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post3545784424495673713..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: SEX!!!Brian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger80125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30375448317479911252010-02-19T05:45:26.344-08:002010-02-19T05:45:26.344-08:00good points Ruben ... we just started a new discus...good points Ruben ... we just started a new discussion on the difference between sexual attraction and lust if you want to jump in. Only two comments so far.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33257766773512075832010-02-18T17:52:01.680-08:002010-02-18T17:52:01.680-08:00Hello all! Im sorry I have come in on this at the ...Hello all! Im sorry I have come in on this at the tail-end, but being that my suggestion on a topic to Joe was partly responsible for the topic, I feel committed to this venture! So here goes what were some of my own thoughts as I read some posts:<br /><br />1. Is sex the ultimate form of communication? I wouldn't put it quite like this. I look back on my own experiences with sex, and feel that, quite simply, sex was a really great experience. It was fun, and it has filled exactly what I needed. On yet other times, I have had much more meaningful sex, but I have also had the good fortune of being married, and enjoying a great relationship and having really strong communication lines.<br /><br />2. If me and my wife decide to have kids, I would really push for an "open-minded" "free-love" idea of parenting, while maintaining a careful eye on making sure that my kid(s) don't make a decision that they may regret for the rest of their lives.<br /><br />3. On the verse that was quoted above: "God commanded us to do something which HE created to be very fun and pleasurable. This does, in fact, remind one of the comment in 1 John 5 that the "...commands of GOD are not burdensome..." - I would kindly ask Jeremiah to speak for himself, as I have myself - at times - been offered WAY more sex than I can handle (joke, lol).<br /><br />4. I believe our morals should adapt to our present day, and the new technologies that have come with it. Much like, as a rough example that comes to mind, refrigators have eliminated the fear behind eating day's old food has helped us curb food poisoning. I dont know, I see these two as being hand in hand with our views on sex, and how some traditional views may, perhaps, impede us from experiencing incredibly great moments (sometimes outside of marriage?).<br /><br />5. I think there is a legitimate reason to seperate the act of sex from that of bearing children, because quite simply, a married couple who engages in sex to indulge in their physical desires wont necessarily intend to conceive everytime they engage in intercourse.<br /><br />6. Sex is very neutral, atleast in my eyes. It appears that way too often, way too much emphasize is placed on the simple act of intercourse where, for example, buddies at the water cooler will chastise a co-worker for making the personal (and, somewhat admirable) decision to abstain, and on the other extreme, a firey preacher command that all members stay 'pure'.<br /><br />Those were some ideas that came to mind. I do apologize in advance for coming across a little crude (im not very gifted in of sublety).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-55299365189296845412010-02-18T06:19:11.732-08:002010-02-18T06:19:11.732-08:00I posted a good video commentary by Dennis Peacock...I posted a good video commentary by Dennis Peacock on the current political gridlock that Steve sent me on my issues blog:<br /><br /><a href="http://c-far.blogspot.com" title="This is a title" rel="nofollow">Faith and Reason</a><br /><br />Just in case anyone is interested in talking politics instead of sex.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-74993559319305324352010-02-17T13:00:30.401-08:002010-02-17T13:00:30.401-08:00Jeremiah, got you on why you wrote the post to Joh...Jeremiah, got you on why you wrote the post to John.<br /><br />John, the scripture you sited is often used as a biblical prohibition against masturbation, but God was upset with the guy because he withdrew from actual intercourse, so it doesn't even address the subject of masturbation. It could possibly be used to argue against birth control, but the nuance of the context isn't about that either. It was simply that he was unwilling to fulfill his duty under the law to produce off-spring for his brother, by his brother's wife after his death.<br /><br />Good point about the potential sefishness of masturbation. I'm not going to comment now. I want to hear what others say.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-25675753481183269992010-02-16T23:50:05.976-08:002010-02-16T23:50:05.976-08:00One thing we haven't talked much about is mast...One thing we haven't talked much about is masturbation and it's place in life. I know that it is in fact possible to abstain from masturbation, but I think that a majority of people simply brush it off as inconsequential. The only scripture that I know of that refers to masturbation is the one that says something about not spilling your seed on the wall. Of course that seems to only apply to males, and I'm not sure about the context of that scripture. The reason I bring it up at all is that I think that in some ways masturbation can be even more detrimental than sexual activities with another person. The reason for this is that masturbation is completely selfish and self centered. Of course many people have sex in the same selfish way. Just food for thought.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84369586214060548162010-02-16T17:11:13.066-08:002010-02-16T17:11:13.066-08:00John M.
I did read his previous post. Here is wh...John M. <br /><br />I did read his previous post. Here is what he wrote that I was conscience bound to warn against "....However, I could easily see myself having sex before marriage if I felt completely and totally committed to a person for the long hall, and totally in love with that person...."<br /><br /><br /><br />Travis, <br /><br />This is a very good point and I think the answer illustrates several very important things. <br /><br />First of all, as has already been pointed out, it demonstrates GOD's great Love and Forgiveness.<br /><br />Secondly, it points out how devastating sexual pluaralism and sin is. It does not take a very rigorous exegesis of those books (I and II Sam, I and II Kings, and I and II Chron) to trace how the root sexual sins and lack of fathering which we see started in the Priest Eli's family grew steadily through Samuel (his sons were profligate) through David (he was a disaster as a father, to put it mildly) until it bore full ripe fruit in Solomon marrying foreign wives, building altars to foreign gods on "the hill of corruption", splitting the kingdom and ultimately resulting in the exile. This topic alone could consume volumes of discussion. Even though GOD forgives sin, often HE still leaves us to live with the consequences.<br /><br />Thirdly it demonstrates something I refer to as "progressive revelation" All of the main scriptural doctrines are present in the first 3 chapters of Genesis. However, GOD continued to unfold, sharpen, clarify and enhance the revelation of HIS intentions and word down to this day. One obvious example is the doctrine of the Trinity, which wasn't finally wrangled out until somewhere in the 700-900 range, AD. As Revelation 22 says "Let him who does wrong continue to do wrong; let him who is vile continue to be vile; let him who does right continue to do right; and let him who is holy continue to be holy" The Greek words here tell the full story, but I don't have time here. <br /><br />There is a continual intensification of Light alongside a continual intensification of Darkness. I personally believe taht a carefull observation of this trend in the world is probably a better clues as to Christ's return than anything else, however, that topic is WAY off course.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-36535867357260569492010-02-16T15:55:04.393-08:002010-02-16T15:55:04.393-08:00In 1 Samuel 14, Jonathan was willing to face impos...In 1 Samuel 14, Jonathan was willing to face impossible odds in battle because he understood something about God: as the NIV puts it, "Nothing can hinder the Lord from saving whether by many or by few."<br /><br />As I meditated on that some years ago, I understood that God is the "relentless redeemer." There is nothing that he cannot and will not redeem if we bring it to him. And somehow his redemption even makes things better than they might have been because his saving grace has acted upon our failures and any circumstance we are in.<br /><br />Does that mean we should deliberately fail so that his grace will kick in and make something better? That question is the logical one to ask. The answer is "No way." (See the end of Romans 5 and on into Romans 6.)<br /><br />God is AWESOME.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-43607687483435797422010-02-16T08:18:49.933-08:002010-02-16T08:18:49.933-08:00Amen to Joseph's wise and grace-filled words.Amen to Joseph's wise and grace-filled words.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-31989423023592876242010-02-16T05:52:39.015-08:002010-02-16T05:52:39.015-08:00Travis, I commend you on your commitment to wait f...Travis, I commend you on your commitment to wait for marriage. I think in years to come you will be thankful for having made that choice. <br /><br />Regarding David and his many wives (not to mention Solomon, Jacob, Abraham and the rest of the gang), the fact that they did not conform to God’s ideal standards of sexuality shows us that God is forgiving and that through Christ he understands our weakness. There IS redemption for those who do not choose to keep their virginity for marriage…. In fact, there IS redemption for those who are pretty screwed up in the sexual area: witness Mary Magdalene, the Samaritan woman by the well and the woman caught in adultery.<br /><br />However, if you are young, and sexually inexperienced, the bar to aim for should be the ideal. The fact is we all sin and fall short of the mark – but if you can appropriate God’s grace to not fall short in that area, it will make your marriage better and life easier. <br /><br />So, use David as a model of worship, but not as a model of family life. Make sense? The fact that God loved him has to do with his worshiping heart, not his many lovers. It shows us that God can love us and live with our humanity, even when we fall short of the mark.<br /><br />While you do well to make a wise choice about your own sexual life—one that pleases God and will bear good fruit in your life, that does not mean that other young people reading this blog who have already made a different choice and cannot go back and change it are screwed. God loves them as well and can lead them and guide them into wholeness and happiness and covenantal love in life if they will allow him.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63380453328105372392010-02-15T20:54:27.245-08:002010-02-15T20:54:27.245-08:00Well, the hard thing for me is that I want to go a...Well, the hard thing for me is that I want to go away and prepare a long discourse. But, this conversation moves so fast, I just have to embrace the whole thing and not worry if I say something I'm not sure of. So, these are my thoughts, but not polished and refined ones.<br /><br />I don't think we should move off the sex topic just yet, by the way. Because although we've raised some interesting, relevant, and pertinent questions, I don't know if we have any significant, practically applicable answers.<br /><br />Okay. So, I'm not going to have sex until I'm married. There it is. Take it or leave it. If I can wait 21 years, then damnit, I can make it a couple of more. Why, do you ask? First of all, if I give my virginity away, there goes the best wedding present. Second of all, any of my friends that have had sex before being married say that it has caused grief. (I can still hear speakers at Camp of Champions talking about how sex before marriage puts a barb in your heart and taking it out always causes damage.) Third of all, I think that Brian's explanation of the meaning of adultery is right, meaning that it encompasses all extramarital relationships. Although not giving in to the enticements around me five million times a day is hard, it's worth it. It has to be.<br /><br />One thing that I don't have an answer for is why David had so many concubines. I always thought that was a little weird. It didn't seem like a "man after God's own heart" and a man of many women were the same guy. Maybe some of the more knowledgeable men can help with this. But, understand, I don't doubt David's love for God or God's love for David.<br /><br />So, it's all about your heart, right? During sex, you can't help but give your heart to someone (in some form or fashion). I mean, heck, we're letting them see and engage parts of our body we're afraid for the world to see. So, why would I want to give a part of my heart away to some girl that I'm not even marrying. In Hebrews 11, it says Moses chose to suffer with the Hebrew people rather than enjoy the "fleeting pleasures of sin" with the Egyptians. So, I guess I'm saying that I would rather suffer by not getting what I want when I want then enjoy the "fleeting pleasure" of sex because I'm holding out for the better thing.Travishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06108616751801107027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-21743119840211969282010-02-15T20:36:53.609-08:002010-02-15T20:36:53.609-08:00Lol. S'all good, to be honest I've got a n...Lol. S'all good, to be honest I've got a nasty rebellious streak somewhere in my ego and I'm still wrestling with God for control of my life, lucky for him he'll never get tired.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-58705699049116548212010-02-15T18:45:47.933-08:002010-02-15T18:45:47.933-08:00Thanks Jeremiah.
Did you read John's last p...Thanks Jeremiah. <br /><br />Did you read John's last post?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-60279970136705789542010-02-15T18:32:57.559-08:002010-02-15T18:32:57.559-08:00John M.,
Thank you for your transparency and open...John M.,<br /><br />Thank you for your transparency and openness. It takes a lot of courage to be as honest here as you have been and I want to thank you for that.<br /><br />John,<br /><br />Let me reply to your comment that the Bible doesn't spell it out. I don't think you have read the Bible very carefully if you think that. Beyond the injunction to marry a virgen you have seduced (which taken to its logical conclusion society wide would preclude fornication) there are numerous verses standing against what you are saying. I say this only because I once thought as you do and really took the time to go through it carefully before I was convinced I was wrong.<br /><br />Secondly, the research doesn't agree with what you are saying in regards to premarital sex. Sex first raises the divorce rate astronomically. <br /><br />You are welcome to do what you want with your life, but I am consience and honor bound to at least warn you that, to me, it looks like a cliff.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-69467754067998496482010-02-15T11:18:07.203-08:002010-02-15T11:18:07.203-08:00We have had a good discussion in here. If we all a...We have had a good discussion in here. If we all agreed, there would be nothing to discuss. It has provided a great springboard for some face-to-face conversations with me and John and last week, with the guys in the god-party. I know that some of the young people read through the sciptures that they might have been unfamiliar with because Brian and Steve mentioned them. Reminds me of the people in Berea.<br /><br />Brian is on vacation this week … don’t know if he will be dropping in or posting a new topic. Any suggestion about the next topic? I would love to keep the younger crowd engaged here … even if we don’t totally agree. Susannah, John, Travis, Amanda, PATRICK!? Anything you would like to talk about OTHER than sex? ;-)Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84270014583517012572010-02-15T10:44:53.620-08:002010-02-15T10:44:53.620-08:00Hey John, thanks for your response. I appreciate ...Hey John, thanks for your response. I appreciate you expressing the angst of your generation so clearly. <br /><br />I agree with Brian that our baby boomer generation handed you guys a pile of doo doo when it comes to ethics, morals and values -- especially sexual mores. <br /><br />The desire to be "faithful" to a partner even if it's outside marriage and may have a serial component, is commendable, and shows more integrity than the "love the one your with", Playboy philosophy of my generation. <br /><br />Even the idea of maintaining "virginity" by avoiding intercourse, although, imo, is just a variation on "going as far as possible" w/o going "all the way", still shows a desire to draw some kind of "line" to maintain before committing to a permenant partner.<br /><br /> <br />Although I think that those decisions and interpretations are not the best, I appreciate the intent and desire to maintain some semblance of moral integrity.<br /><br />Regarding "waiting" and being celibate I know at least two couples in your generation who experienced their first kiss by mutual agreement on their wedding day. I know several others who were not involved sexually before marriage. They all decided to draw "the line" way up the slope, rather than seeing how far they could go and still avoid intercourse. <br /><br />I really respect them. I wish I would have done the same. I was still a "virgin" on my wedding night, but only in a strictly physical sense -- not menatlly -- and certainly not in a totally non-sexual way. The only reason my actions, hormones and lack of self-control didn't push us beyond heavy petting and intimate touching to "all the way", was my fiance/now wife drawing the line. <br /><br />I regret that, even after 38 years of marriage. I have apologized and asked her forgiveness several times. My indescretions were totally selfish, and objectified her, rather than cherishing and honoring her. <br /><br />I wish that the marriage vows/covenant would have erased all that, but sadly, I brought it right into our marriage. It has taken most of our marriage for me to even realize my problem, much less begin to deal with it. Finally, I'm doing that, and our marriage is gaining strenght and is more healthy than it has ever been -- by God's grace, not through any virtue on my part!<br /><br />B/t/w, this may be tmi, but you and several others have mentioned wondering what intercourse is [or would be] like. I have always wondered what oral sex is like... There are always lines that can't be crossed either for moral reasons or out of respect for a partner... <br /><br />OK A bunch of you were having a stimulating conversation before I started posting. I seem to have shut things down once again. I kind of have a knack for that. John it's been good to talk to you (and Steve H). I'm going to lay back and see if anyone else (hopefully) has more to say.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-79666194074951832942010-02-15T04:55:13.367-08:002010-02-15T04:55:13.367-08:00Here's something else to consider, John. Is it...Here's something else to consider, John. Is it really God's way to learn, "to decide how we feel," even if it is with advice and counsel. Is it really God's way, to tell our children, you're old enough now -- it's your option.<br /><br />Check out Genesis 18:19. I have wondered, why did God choose Abraham to be the father of those who believe? The best answer I've found is here: God chose Abraham so that he would command his children to follow God's ways -- and apparently could trust Abraham to do it.<br /><br />Sure my children can choose to disobey (just like I can), but that's not because I offer them the option as if all that mattered was that they choose. That is the mindset that began to popularized in the 60's -- discover your own values, choose your own code. That's the way of this culture, but it's not the way of God's culture.<br /><br />[By the way, the gospel is that way too -- according to the New Testament the gospel is a message / an announcement that is to be obeyed, or else. God's not all that open-minded as far as I can see. As one of my friends says, tongue-in-cheek, "God has a problem. He thinks he is God." In other words God is King of the Universe and as King he expects his created things and created people to obey. How un-American, eh?]steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-74001590902464489552010-02-14T22:14:50.707-08:002010-02-14T22:14:50.707-08:00To be honest I totally agree with you John, and I ...To be honest I totally agree with you John, and I appreciate your honesty and openness about the whole thing. To be honest I feel like I'm mostly just reacting against the automatic assumption that any and all sex before marriage is bad, besides, what kind of conversation would that be anyways? =oP Truth be told I haven't nor do I think I will be able to have intercourse before I'm married, and I do realize the dangers of pursuing any kind of sexual satisfaction because the more one does it the more one represses the feeling of guilt and dirtiness. For good or for bad I simply cannot do what I feel is a crime against love. However, I could easily see myself having sex before marriage if I felt completely and totally committed to a person for the long hall, and totally in love with that person. If made a decision that I would stick to this person like glue then I wouldn't have a problem with sex simply because I'd already be married, obviously though there most likely wouldn't be a need because marriage would hopefully be coming soon after my realization of love for that person. <br /><br />I suppose as experienced men who know what life is all about you guys simply automatically reply that, "well, it's better this way," and you're probably 100% right, all I'm asking is that we dig up facts to support it. I still think it's strange that not having sex before you're married isn't written out in the bible as clearly as we suppose that it is. John brought up the definition of adultery in the church, but I wonder how much of that is influenced by the church. Seems to me that in the scheme of things sex is definitely not the most important item on the agenda, but understanding it and understanding where we've gotten the idea that it should be in a monogamous relationship is key to confirming the belief within ourselves. Also, I don't really think our generation is dealing with anything new here, but we do have to put it on the table and decide how we feel about it with the support and advice of our experienced forefathers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-44636405991281268582010-02-14T18:37:05.099-08:002010-02-14T18:37:05.099-08:00John, it's funny how attitudes toward oral sex...John, it's funny how attitudes toward oral sex have changed. When I was in high school and college, oral sex was looked at as "pushing the envelope", and many were repulsed with the idea; while vaginal intercourse was seen as "normal" and by most, I'm talking premarital here, the preferred option. Oral sex was associated with homosexuality more than heterosexuality, and when performed in a heterosexual encounter was seen as kinda kinky. <br /><br />Until the last several years, I had never heard any debate about whether oral sex was "real sex" or not. If you're being that intimate physically, and you have an orgasm -- what about that is not "sexual" or "real"? Just askin'! <br /><br />So, next logical question: Do you want your 16 year old to opt for "just" oral sex?<br /><br />Also, I don't totally agree with your argument about celibacy being virtually impossible and unrealistic for either 16-year-olds or 20-30 somthings. Difficult, of course. Impossible no. <br /><br />Sexual chemistry, sensuality, prostitution, seductiveness, sexual attraction, temptation, pornographic art, have always been arond. You, yourself mentioned some of the O.T. mores. Read the Joseph/Potipher's wife story again and think about the pressure Joseph had on him -- but he went to prison rather than go to bed with his boss' wife, even when she repeatedly propositioned him and finally tried to physically co-erce him into the bedroom. Do some research about the culture at Corinth or in Rome during N.T. times. Check out the Kama Stura, or some of the ancient temple carvings in India. <br /><br />I agree that the internet has proliferated availability of pornography and anything else one might be looking for, but; different package, same stuff.<br /><br />Please don't hear this as preachy or self-righteous. I've rationalized way to much sexual behavior that I lived to regreat by telling myself, "that's just the way I am", "I have a stronger sex drive than other guys", "If I look at girls on the internet (who in my case are younger than some of my own daughters), I'm not really lusting, I'm just appreciating the beauty of God's creation", "Besides, they want me to look, that's why they posed, right?" "I'll channel the sexual energy created by this fantasy or this image into my relationship with my wife." NOT. Been there. Done that. It doesn't work. To rephrase Steve H, it bears really bad fruit.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-79745070464848303792010-02-14T16:45:44.528-08:002010-02-14T16:45:44.528-08:00Although I have firm convictions on these matters ...Although I have firm convictions on these matters (convictions that I believe are based on the word God has given us in Scripture), I have no desire to be argumentative here.<br /><br />I am glad John M brought up the matter of fornication which is clearly forbidden in the New Testament. Interestingly enough the Greek word translated fornication is the root word of the English word pornography -- literally, the writing of fornication or sexual immorality -- which in itself is worth taking seriously.<br /><br />Another thought to consider: we have used the word "sin" in this discussion, although sometimes tentatively. It is notable that the Greek word most often associated translated "sin" literally means "to miss the mark" and as you may know was used in archery when the arrow misses the target. This suggests that there is a mark to hit -- a good or ideal that we should be shooting for. God does not forbid behaviors so much because in and of themselves they are evil. Rather he forbids behaviors that keep us from hitting the mark -- from reaching the best thing possible for us.<br /><br />One last thing to consider, Brian's point that the one man/one woman united to be one flesh is the first principle according to Genesis and according to Jesus. Although God did not explicitly forbid multiple wives or concubines, the fruit is clear. Almost every time (if not every time) the Bible gives us details about the life in such families, we find that it did not bear good fruit, especially for the children.<br /><br />God's pattern for marriage is made clear when one of the qualifications for elders in the church is that they be the husbands of only one wife -- and the elders were to be the example that others in the church should follow.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30192495546870015752010-02-14T15:20:39.170-08:002010-02-14T15:20:39.170-08:00Good points John, and I'm glad you are open mi...Good points John, and I'm glad you are open minded about it. I'm more than willing to admit that that my thinking is often influenced by my desires and actions, and that I rationalize to absolve myself. As far as having a child goes, my desire for my children is to be as open and honest with them without telling them directly not to do something once I feel they are able to make decisions on their own. Do I think a 16 year old is ready to make that choice? Absolutely not, but what I think obviously doesn't matter in a world where they're going to be forced to make those choices anyways. If I'm able have the kind of relationship with my child that I truly desire to have then I believe that they will take time to consider my advice on sex as well as drugs and everything else. <br /><br />Luckily for me I can tell them that I only had oral sex when I was that age!<br /><br />The big thing I'm trying to challenge with my continuous barrage of comments is the automatic assumption that sex before marriage is wrong and here's why.<br /><br />All this time I've been fighting the wrong angle because I don't believe it's wrong, I believe it <b> can be </b> unhealthy. And in my mind there's a huge difference between wrong and unhealthy. <br /><br />So I'll chillax on the commenting a bit and see what everyone has to say.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-20645037352813806032010-02-14T12:45:10.483-08:002010-02-14T12:45:10.483-08:00Whoa! Amanda, I agree. I've been trying to c...Whoa! Amanda, I agree. I've been trying to catch up all week. Every time I think I'm ready to post, I refresh the blog and find another dozen posts! Fun and stimulating to understate a bit.<br /><br />Some random responses:<br /><br />John, are you really comfortable with your 16 yr old (son or daughter) having sex with their boyfriend/girlfriend?<br /><br />I have a friend who says, "The human mind rationalizes what the heart [in this case hormones] desires." It seems that a lot of our (mine included) sexual ideas, reasoned from our experiences and desires, fit that pattern. <br /><br />Fornication – “Voluntary sex between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman; extended in the Bible to adultery.” Source: Dictionary.com<br /><br />“For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery…” -- Jesus. <br /><br />What is the difference between what the Bible calls “sexual immorality” (older translations, “fornication”) and adultery?<br /><br />Why is sex so powerful and so pervasive in our thinking?<br /><br />Why is our sexuality at the very heart of our identity and understanding of who we are?<br /><br />One last question: Was Jesus celibate, or did he have sex with Mary Magdalene, and the other women who traveled with his company, or, as some have suggested, with the other disciples? <br /><br />Or was he even still a virgin when he left the carpenter shop at the age of 30? After all, he was fully human...John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-61061203060367953042010-02-14T12:28:40.190-08:002010-02-14T12:28:40.190-08:00John, I'd like to respond, but I've been d...John, I'd like to respond, but I've been doing a lot of that lately... and Kath and I are heading off for a vacation for a few days, so alas (or hurray!), I'm going to go silent for a bit. Not because I don't continue to be very interested and involved in this discussion, but because I'm not sure what kind of internet access might be available (and whether or not we'll want to spend any time with it!)<br /><br />I'll check back in next weekend, when we'll be on comment 517 or something like that. Joseph has the helm!<br /><br />My best to you all!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-6611439644867383252010-02-14T09:09:31.341-08:002010-02-14T09:09:31.341-08:00Well the only problem I have with that is that the...Well the only problem I have with that is that the term adultery brings to mind sex with someone that you aren't married to while you're married, but perhaps that's because of current cultural trends. I guess you'd probably have to look at the original Hebrew term that is used in the ten Commandments to know for sure what it was supposed to mean. It just seems to me that biblically speaking Jesus put a lot more emphasis on other aspects of life in his teachings. There seem to be very few times that he deals with the issue of sex, one of which is the time with the woman by the well, but with the importance sex seems to carry today it would've been useful if he'd laid it out clearly for us. "Oh hey guys, I'm not having sex because I'm not getting married, and you guys should probably do the same thing because if you have sex outside of marriage it's bad for you."<br /><br />Whatever the case, I do believe in sex being a union of two people, no only physically, but emotionally, and possibly even spiritually as well. I can easily see how having sex with a prostitute could be unhealthy on several different levels, but these days I tend to apply that to a different type of person. I think that the important distinction is men and women who have sex for the sake of having sex, and don't care at all about the people they are sleeping with. Obviously connecting sexually with a person like that would be harmful simply because you'd get your emotions hurt. Once it's said and done they'd expect to have nothing to do with you while perhaps your expectations are different. <br /><br />However, that doesn't address sex out of love for someone, but outside of marriage. For instance say you're sixteen (which most of my high school friends were when they lost there virginity) and you feel like you're in love with someone. You don't have sex right away but you're dating this person for six months or so and realize that you really feel connected to this person, but you also realized there's no chance in hell you're going to marry this person for at least four years. Well suddenly you've got a problem on your hands called blue balls, the natural next step in your relationship might be marriage and sex, but marriage at your age isn't acceptable in society (for good reason I might add) so you both decide that you want to have sex. Of course four years later you might realize you've made a mistake and break it off with that person, but who's to blame here? Can you blame someone who feels like they're in love and wants to take the next step but can't get married and has sex instead? Of course that's a different circumstance then being 20 something and making your choices, but around 16 is when these major decisions are made for the majority of the populace. <br /><br />I guess what I'm saying here is that I don't know if I think that that theoretical kid made a mistake. Maybe the blame belongs to society for not allowing for young marriage and not preparing children to make those kinds of decisions, or maybe parents who aren't open and honest with their kids and don't tell their kids what they think about sex.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28625927004735097982010-02-14T06:31:16.389-08:002010-02-14T06:31:16.389-08:00If we want to keep at least part of the discussion...If we want to keep at least part of the discussion focused on what the Bible says and how we interpret and apply it, we need to add Ephesians 5 into the mix. There Paul makes the point that marriage is representative of the relationship between Christ and his people/the church. Paul follows Jesus here in grounding our understanding of human sexuality in Genesis, specifically in the way in which "the two shall become one" in marriage (Matthew 19:1-12, Ephesians 5:28-33). Jesus doesn't "sleep around" and therefore neither should those who seek to follow him. Paul's argument is based on the reality that Christ and the church is prior to human marriage: he doesn't start with us and then reason his way to Jesus and his people; he begins with Christ and grounds human relationships, specifically amrriage, in that larger reality.<br /><br />Amanda and John, I'd like to hear more from you on this question of the ways in which sexual intercourse somehow "unites" two people ("the two shall become one"), an idea that Paul picks up when he says sleeping with prostitutes is bad because the man who does so "unites" himself with the prostitute (and she with him--1 Corinthians 6:12-20). If sex is "designed" to unite us in this way, doesn't that suggest that sex outside of marriage is going to prove harmful to us? That there's something not finally in our best interests in uniting than disuniting with this person, then with that one, until we feel ready to settle down?<br /><br />John, to your question about why God didn't make it clearer, I would suggest he did: no adultery. Adultery does not pertain only when two people are married; it is a broader term, focusing on faithfulness, first to God and then within all our other relationships. The "no adultery" commandment encompasses sexual intimacy outside of/apart from marriage. The Bible reports David's concubines, multiple wives, etc., but there's a difference between reporting and approving... and it's pretty clear that in both David and Solomon's cases, their sin did eventually find them out: David with Bathsheba, and Solomon's eventual spiritual adultery flowing from his sexual adultery with all them wives and concubines!<br /><br />Great discussion--thanks to all and keep it coming!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-25387038298219545422010-02-14T05:23:49.454-08:002010-02-14T05:23:49.454-08:00Thanks for backing me up Amanda, also as far as th...Thanks for backing me up Amanda, also as far as the scripture you quoted Steve, it refers specifically to a man seducing a virgin, which I would agree is sinful. All I'm saying is that if God was so against premarital sex or even sex with multiple people, then why didn't he tell David not to have more than one wife or concubines? Once again I'm not advocating free love or anything like that, I'm just asking if we're taking a Biblically sound viewpoint on sex and what it entails. I would imagine that if God didn't expect us to have sex before marriage then he would've tagged that onto the ten commandments... "Oh, by the way guys, don't have sex unless your married to the person." It seems like with the amount of thought that we put in to it and the importance it apparently has that God would've popped it in there somewhere. Instead we see tons of scriptures that say not to have "the wrong kind" of sex.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15268501008207104968noreply@blogger.com