tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post5455953755726817650..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Infalliberrancy?Brian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-65088820674468113572007-09-17T18:24:00.000-07:002007-09-17T18:24:00.000-07:00Robert, regarding your last post on world-wide Ang...Robert, regarding your last post on world-wide Anglicanism... these and some of your other recent comments have helped me more clearly understand the dynamics of the current shift taking place.<BR/><BR/>There are at least three conservative Anglican congregations in the Lexington area, one a new start-up and two who left behind their property and started over from scratch. Two of them are under a Ugandan Bishop and one under a Rawandan Bishop. I believe, in central KY there is also a jurisdiction with a Bishop from South America.<BR/><BR/>I understand the need to maintain ties and ecclesiastical authority with the world-wide communion. But this raises several questions for me...<BR/><BR/>How can there be multiple bishops speaking into one local area, without competition, politics and power struggles down the road?<BR/><BR/>How can these bishops continue to maintain their current responsibilities in their country of origin, continue to live there, and still have any more than an "on paper" or at best very superficial relationship with their American congregations, and how can they take on all this added responsibility without burning out over the long haul?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33865588133113434202007-09-16T19:32:00.000-07:002007-09-16T19:32:00.000-07:00Steve and Joseph....Jose...you know I agree the fa...Steve and Joseph....<BR/><BR/>Jose...you know I agree the failure to recognize Wesley by Canterbury was a politically motivated mistake...certainly not generous. It was a prime example of government and Kingdom being improperly meshed. It precipitated the need for Wesley to move forward with the Kingdom at the expense of legacy. Wesley left this earthly journey committed to his heritage without enjoying the blessing of the same. <BR/><BR/>Steve...the current state of affairs for Anglicanism in the west is in a huge window of Kingdom extraction. The worldwide Anglican Communion has some 80 million adherents...the majority are from the global south who stand for orthodox biblical Faith. The 3.5 million identified with the Episcopal Church USA (ECUSA) are at the center of the controversy. Many within that number are struggling and will be faced with major decisions in the near future. The Asian, African and South American leaders have taken a concrete stand for the Faith once handed down while maintaining identification with the historic church. This crisis of faith is approaching a significant point of determination. The House of Bishops for ECUSA have until the end of this month to essentially repent. Apart from that occuring...and I don't believe that is imaginable...there will be a major realignment within the Anglican Communion. The leadership will come from the global south. The people groups that received the Gospel from our great grandfathers are being faithful to what they received and are now sending leadership support to those in the west who seek to stand for biblical faith. I am impressed with the humility and conviction of the primatial leaders I have met. They will choose Jesus over tradition while placing value on the traditions, creeds and formularies that have supported their faith and worship. It remains a wonder to me that the majority of the Anglican Communion with a sacred approach to worship is found in African, Asian and South American cities and villages. These are our brothers and sisters who are living in an Ancient-Future ethos at a great price. They are holding fast for the values we cherish in our own legacy...Kingdom, Covenant and Church. <BR/><BR/>The leaders I work with in the Anglican Mission all regard themselves as missionary pastors serving missional congregations focused on making disciples of Jesus. I trust that sounds familiar.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09536846888583909874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-1073115672834907472007-09-14T21:37:00.000-07:002007-09-14T21:37:00.000-07:00gee, it got in quite in here. everybody went away ...gee, it got in quite in here. everybody went away for the weekend?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84013943540165311702007-09-13T08:36:00.000-07:002007-09-13T08:36:00.000-07:00It seems to me that the RC in the rest of the worl...It seems to me that the RC in the rest of the world is similar to the Anglicans regarding some of these issues, it seems that the American version of both is pretty much the bottom of the barrel for what each group has worldwide.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-42137697495765789662007-09-12T20:18:00.000-07:002007-09-12T20:18:00.000-07:00sorry everyone...please disregard my previous post...sorry everyone...please disregard my previous post...it is an old one that I already posted before. My computer did it again... Windows VISTA is driving me crazy...<BR/><BR/>I don't want to speak for Robert...my initial response to Anglicanism was similiar to what you are expressing Steve.<BR/><BR/>However, as I have looked into it, our impressions have been heavily colored by our experience with U.S. Episcopalianism ... global Anglicanism is much more vital, and much more biblically faithful that we are accustomed to thinking. <BR/><BR/>Wesley strove to the end of his life to keep Methodist 'classes" and societies as a sodality within the Anglican communion... probably would have been better for both if he had succeeded.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63722716823354552092007-09-12T20:13:00.000-07:002007-09-12T20:13:00.000-07:00Robert, I met a young man doing his PhD in the Rel...Robert, I met a young man doing his PhD in the Religion dept. at U.F. at the conference in Montreal. He was excited about what he is calling "convergence" in contrast to "emergent". <BR/><BR/>He is studying the Brazilian Anglican church, specifically bishop Roberto Calvicanti, who has begun giving oversight to some Anglican churches in Florida. <BR/><BR/>He is documenting the "convergence" of several streams (Catholicism, Evangelical, and Pentecostal) in Brazilian Anglicanism. <BR/><BR/>Regarding Eastern Orthodox and Anglicanism...if I am going to play a banjo...I want to have all 4 strings: Catholic, Protestant(including evangelicals and Pentecostals), Orthodox and Anglican... no sense in playing with a 1 string Banjo. Thats what I liked about McLaren's book, "A Generous Orthodoxy"...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-41398354133761904832007-09-12T18:05:00.000-07:002007-09-12T18:05:00.000-07:00Haven't been on this site for a few days so I didn...Haven't been on this site for a few days so I didn't know I was being talked about.<BR/><BR/>I am not an apologist for Eastern Orthodoxy. I have simply been helped by a number of Orthodox writers in part because they tend to see things from a different angle -- so I see a broader picture. It also seems clear to me that some of these writers have a clearer picture on what the Christians in the earliest centuries A.D. believed, taught, and sought to live. I think it's as important to know what we are changing from as to know (as far as possible) what we are changing to.<BR/><BR/>I haven't critiqued in this forum the things that concern me about E.O. because as far as I know none of us are of that persuasion. But I am not blind to some of its problems.<BR/><BR/>Robert, I have certainly been appreciating the Anglican N.T. Wright. I also appreciate Robert Webber. African Anglicanism interests me even though I don't know too much about it (although I've been looking at some interesting articles in Touchstone magazine by some of these brothers).<BR/><BR/>The mess in the Episcopal church and to some degree apparently in the Church of England have not encouraged me in that direction.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-22938425716577468562007-09-12T12:09:00.000-07:002007-09-12T12:09:00.000-07:00yes, but Brian... my new blog has Beatles music on...yes, but Brian... my new blog has Beatles music on it! <BR/><BR/>;-)Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30564269384062152672007-09-12T08:33:00.000-07:002007-09-12T08:33:00.000-07:00William,I would tend to agree with what Joseph sai...William,<BR/><BR/>I would tend to agree with what Joseph said about the regeneration of the spirit man etc., that happens to be exactly what is stated in Romans 6-8.(I'm not sure when or how He starts working in our lives, but if He motivates animals to reproduce per Ps 104, its not much of a stretch to assume He is active in unbelievers to one degree or another, they are obviously, per Imago Dei, more valuable than animals) I was talking with someone 3 days ago about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and I was mentioning these exact passages (from John). Somehow the infilling of the HS is distinct from the Baptism. How or why I don't know, I just know that is both the Biblical pattern (from the stories) and the Biblical theology (From Romans etc.) and it also happens to be my experience as well (which is mostly irrelevant)<BR/><BR/>Regarding what Brian said, except for the comment about John paralleling Genesis, I didn't really understand what he was talking about. I don't think my Bible reading is as sophisticated as all that.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-10501169389221679972007-09-11T19:44:00.000-07:002007-09-11T19:44:00.000-07:00William, one classic evangelical view on the Spiri...William, one classic evangelical view on the Spirit is at least partly derived from Watchman Nee, who defined the human person as a trinity of soul, spirit and body, made in the image of God.<BR/><BR/>The spirit died with Adam's sin, thus cutting off human beings from communion with God.<BR/><BR/>In the new birth, the spirit is once again quickened, or regenerated, thus restoring man's spiritual communion with God.<BR/><BR/>There are various points of view about the finer points of the indwelling, empowering or the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and whether it happens at the new birth, or sometime subsequent to the new birth. <BR/><BR/>I personally have started question my own assumptions in this area recently. Although I am not an expert on Catholic theology, I believe their emphasis on natural law leaves more room for the work of grace in natural human nature before the new birth.<BR/><BR/>Ecclesiastes has a verse (can't find it at the moment) that says "who can know if at death, the spirit (breath) of a man will go up, while the spirit of an animal will go down?"<BR/><BR/>The breath or spirit of God was breathed into Adam at creation. <BR/><BR/>I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is more active internally in pre-Christians and non believers that evangelical theology normally allows. I have known lots of people who began functioning in the charisms, the spiritual gifts, even before they believed and confessed Christ. <BR/><BR/>there is an invisible inward continuam of the work of the Holy Spirit in a person's life and it is dangerours to arbitrarily draw fixed dividing lines. <BR/><BR/>I'm sure there are others here who may disagree or may have better information on some of these points.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-50654945202025459722007-09-11T13:25:00.000-07:002007-09-11T13:25:00.000-07:00Jose, like we really need another blog to keep up ...Jose, like we really need another blog to keep up with--yikes!<BR/><BR/>William, a first response, and hardly a final one. I think we first need to let John's Gospel speak for itself, and not try to jump riight to "harmonizing" it with the rest of the NT. John is clearly paralelling Genesis throughout his Gospel, and the passage in Jn 20 could be read as Jesus' "re-creation" of a renewed/redeemed humanity--in Gen, the LORD breathes into the man and Adam became a living being/soul; in Jn n20, Jesus breathes upon the disicples and immediately makes a connection between receiving the Spirit and the proclamation of the forgiveness of sins. and Jn 20 of course follows the Lor's rich and varied teaching on the Person and Work of the Spirit in chaps 14-16.<BR/><BR/>John tells the story of Jesus in ways very distinct and different from the Synoptics. Do we assume that John was familiar with Mat-Mk-Lk and was bringing a different stream of material into the tradition? If that's the case, we would 'harmonize' John and Luke-Acts along one line; if, on the otherr hand, we knew that John did not have the synoptics avaialble to him, we would read and harmonize along different lines.<BR/><BR/>All of which is probably of no help to you, eh? Sheesh, ask a simple question and look what you get!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-19113456846553341602007-09-11T11:03:00.000-07:002007-09-11T11:03:00.000-07:00hey William: we talked right past your question. G...hey William: we talked right past your question. Give me a little time to think about it. It is a very good topic. We probably have some unwarrented assumptions in that area.<BR/><BR/>To all: I finally figured out why no one was reading or posting on my Faith and Reason blog...it was too controversial, too provocative. So I created a new blog, and tried to tone it down a little. <BR/><BR/>http://kairosrevolution.blogspot.com/<BR/><BR/>(big smile)<BR/>jJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-12518440489398060792007-09-11T09:07:00.000-07:002007-09-11T09:07:00.000-07:00John M.,It is a very complicated rock throwing tec...John M.,<BR/><BR/>It is a very complicated rock throwing technique. <BR/><BR/>I'm not talking about "seekers" I don't think there are many "seekers" out there. Most people I meet are just trying to get through life. Like sheep without a shepherd they are harrassed and harried and just trying to keep their head up. <BR/><BR/>I don't go around trying to argue with people about theology, but most people honestly believe they are "basically a good person its just..." and then they have some external excuse for why they have a problem. This is the discussion of original sin. It is a problem because most people don't distinguish between being and doing and have no way to comprehend that just because some action is evil and they have a corrupt nature has no influence on their value as a human. Consequently if you ever point out that some action is wrong, whether they practice it or not, they immediately hear that they are worthless. <BR/><BR/>Brian,<BR/><BR/>Regarding the sexual thing, most people who I've talked with simply want to do what they want, with who they want, etc. and don't want anyone to tell them what to do.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the infallibility of scripture it usually has to do with Creation. i.e. do you really believe the earth was created in 7 literal 24 hour days? (BTW yes I do) and then progresses from there. <BR/><BR/>The Creation/Evolution discussion is a huge issue that most people are open to discussing and everyone instinctively realizes the full implications. i.e. if there is a Creator, I have an obligation to Him. <BR/><BR/>William, your question is a good one and I think merits its own thread.<BR/><BR/>To all:<BR/><BR/>Regarding which branch we are in etc.: Jesus is coming back for A BRIDE without spot or blemish. We obviously have work to do for that to happen. I don't think anyone in any group is under the illusion the Bride is ready yet. Whatever has to happen for her to be ready needs to happen and we should all look at our piece of the Bride and put our shoulder to the transformation.Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-36944145309873221412007-09-10T22:31:00.000-07:002007-09-10T22:31:00.000-07:00This is one of many primary sources regarding the ...This is one of many primary sources regarding the Church and Jewish converts. <BR/><BR/>http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/jewish-oaths.htmlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-38317696769124569322007-09-10T22:00:00.000-07:002007-09-10T22:00:00.000-07:00Hi guys,Gosh, I'm trying to keep up! I think ever...Hi guys,<BR/><BR/>Gosh, I'm trying to keep up! I think every faith tradition has strengths and weaknesses. This includes faith traditions outside our Western context.<BR/><BR/>I think the Anglican tradition is not as monolithic as they seem. Anglicans in Africa have protested the appointments of gay priests. Episcopalians here in the U.S. are divided with the issue.<BR/><BR/>Both the Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox traditions have issues. One of them is replacement theology. In the EO tradition, John Chrysostom is a venerated church father, but not everything he said is good at all. So I agree with Joseph that we can't view these traditions from a romanticized perspective. The RC and EO also believe in paedo-baptism instead of believer's baptism, which, if you're a Protestant, might have problems with. There are numerous other issues as well. The Inquisition, the Crusades (the 4th Crusade sacked Constantinople in 1204, for no other reason than greed). If you're a Jewish-Christian, the issues with these faith traditions are huge. But, they also have value. It's a dilemma to me. I embrace a tradition that at times persecuted my people - propagated by some very unenlightened people. The EO and RC churches treatment of Jews isn't stellar at all, and neither is Martin Luther (after he got frustrated with the Jews). I can't get over the fact how the Pope during World War II proclaimed that anyone who became a communist would be excommunicated, but one could become a Nazi. During the Inquisition in Spain in the 15th century, a converted Jew would undergoe questioning. If Jesus would have been put before the Inquisition, He might have been burned at the stake.<BR/><BR/>But I don't carry around an axe to grind, or stones to throw. History is history. It happened. What we learn from it is another matter.<BR/><BR/>Shalom,<BR/><BR/>SeanAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-10397095816985057522007-09-10T21:56:00.000-07:002007-09-10T21:56:00.000-07:00Joseph,In fact, I believe that is happening in a c...Joseph,<BR/><BR/>In fact, I believe that is happening in a chairos moment as we speak. There are about 3.5 million members of the Episcopal Church USA (ECUSA). Not everyone in that number subscribe to the liberal leanings of ECUSA but certainly the major leaders have bought into a syncretistic understanding of biblical truth. <BR/><BR/>There are 80 million members of the worldwide Anglican Communion. The leaders of the global south, representing the major representatives of Anglicans worldwide, have taken a staunch stand against the liberalism of the west. I have had opportunity to meet with some of the African leaders and find them to be incredibly humble people who are primarily focused on bringing people to Jesus. They are tongue speaking, on fire, church planting, relationally oriented, organically thinking people who are planting new churches weekly. They are rooted in historic biblical Faith grounded in apostolic tradition. <BR/><BR/>The subject of church history supporting continuity with the early centuries is far too vast to address in this post. I will leave this one by saying that Cranmer, Hooker and others in the English Reformation were interested in "Kingdom Extraction" in their day. They wrestled with the confluence of the Church and the realm...the institution. The outcome of some 50 million Africans who identify themselves as followers of Jesus who are committed to appostolic Faith and are now dedicated to evangelizing the west are the results of their efforts. <BR/><BR/>For those who do not know my history with our movement, I am simply throwing my shoulder behind the wheel of our African, Asian and South American brothers who are holding forth for the things we hold dear.<BR/><BR/>Anyone interested in observing more about the Anglican Mission in the Americas can go to "theamia.org" and snoop around.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09536846888583909874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-57104350194525572732007-09-10T20:44:00.000-07:002007-09-10T20:44:00.000-07:00Wow! Things came alive here since I left last nig...Wow! Things came alive here since I left last night.<BR/><BR/>Jeremiah, next time I see you, I want you to demonstrate this rock-throwing technique where you throw a rock and hit yourself in the back of the head. I just need to remember not to stand behind you when you throw.<BR/><BR/>Jeremiah, I wonder if the people you talk to have a Bible-belt influence in their thinking which would make them want to argue the issues you mentioned. My experience is that most people who want to debate and argue are not usually sincere seekers. I don't think it is very effective to try to present the Kingdom by arguing doctrine. Trying to straighten-out someone doctrinely before introducing them to Jesus and His Kingdom is futile, and why should I try, when I'm pretty sure I'm not "straightened out" myself!<BR/><BR/>Joseph, fair enough regarding critiquing the E. O. church.<BR/><BR/>The "convergence" idea keeps coming up. Steve Humble's friend, Dan Smithwick, has recently joined up with a current movement that emphasizes the convergence of diverse historical streams of Christianity into one stream. Has anyone Googled "convergence"? <BR/><BR/>Robert, where do you find a clear statement of pure Anglican theology? It seems that Anglicanism has done the typical Protestant thing by branching out in so many directions that with-in the Anglican Communion you can find just about any brand of conservative/liberal, wiccan, feminist, gay, aposticized, brand of Christianity you want. <BR/><BR/>I know that R.C. and E.O. have their problems also, but it seems that they both have kept blatent heresy in check, where, at least from my limited perspective, the Anglicans seem not to have done that. I can see that to identify with an Anglican Church that embraces the Gospel of the Kingdom, is a good thing, but to embrace the world-wide Anglican Communion seems to accept a very mixed bag. Can you help me here? How do you see yourself in relation to these issues?<BR/><BR/>JohnJohn M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-80370568069215945752007-09-10T19:19:00.000-07:002007-09-10T19:19:00.000-07:00Robert, I met a young man doing his PhD in the Rel...Robert, I met a young man doing his PhD in the Religion dept. at U.F. at the conference in Montreal. He was excited about what he is calling "convergence" in contrast to "emergent". <BR/><BR/>He is studying the Brazilian Anglican church, specifically bishop Roberto Calvicanti, who has begun giving oversight to some Anglican churches in Florida. <BR/><BR/>He is documenting the "convergence" of several streams (Catholicism, Evangelical, and Pentecostal) in Brazilian Anglicanism. <BR/><BR/>Regarding Eastern Orthodox and Anglicanism...if I am going to play a banjo...I want to have all 4 strings: Catholic, Protestant(including evangelicals and Pentecostals), Orthodox and Anglican... no sense in playing with a 1 string Banjo. Thats what I liked about McLaren's book, "A Generous Orthodoxy"...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-11174951915070229092007-09-10T18:57:00.000-07:002007-09-10T18:57:00.000-07:00While reviewing the merits of different paths...do...While reviewing the merits of different paths...don't leave the English out. The Anglican Communion is also known as the "middle way"...specifically between RC and EO. The preservation of mystery and the sacred has been retained with continuity going back to the earliest centuries of missionary activity in the British isles. Current sacramental theology is linked to the first three hundred years of the undivided Church, especially the idea of "real presence" in Holy Communion. <BR/><BR/>I am a reader of Fr. Alexander Schemmaan...particlularly because I believe he rose above the presumption that only the Orthodox get it...thus they are the only true church. Schemmaan saw the Kingdom...and did not like religion...though he loved Matins and the various liturgies. It seems a paradox to say you love liturgy and despise religion. I understand that much better these days.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09536846888583909874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-4395535471234406182007-09-10T15:24:00.000-07:002007-09-10T15:24:00.000-07:00Sorry everyone this is not even related to the top...Sorry everyone this is not even related to the topic, but I would like your thoughts. <BR/><BR/>The difference, if there is one, between being filled with the Spirit and the Spirit coming upon us. <BR/><BR/>In John 20, he tells how Jesus breathed on them and they received the Spirit, but that wasnt enough, because He told them to wait until the promise. Then the Spirit came in power on Pentecost.Will Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16631769979944075441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-52832243098901553402007-09-10T12:26:00.000-07:002007-09-10T12:26:00.000-07:00I agree that there are many people who are open to...I agree that there are many people who are open to God but don't want to become "fundamentalists" or even "culturally conservative Republicans". <BR/><BR/>I bought extra copies of Brian McLaren's book, "The Secret Message of Jesus" to give to just such people (like most of my friends). The "Secret Message" that McLaren is referring to is the Kingdom of God... and he wraps it in language about social justice and concern for the environment that makes it more palatable for liberal leaning truth seekers.<BR/><BR/>I have kept track of all of the birthdays of most of my secular friends...last year I gave them a copy of The Purpose-Driven Life... this year it is the "Secret Message of Jesus"Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-90443485422774873102007-09-10T11:32:00.000-07:002007-09-10T11:32:00.000-07:00I'd guess that, with respect to Original Sin, peop...I'd guess that, with respect to Original Sin, people are looking for something that doesn't feel entirely fatalistic... I suspect they're OK w/ the basic idea that they are sinful (at least in some way, at some level), but wonder if that's simply the end of the story.<BR/><BR/>I'd also guess, w/ respect to the Bible, people are looking for a way of reading, understanding and living Scripture that avoids the traps of fundamentalism while still providing them a life-changing challenge. They're wondering if you can follow Jesus without having to become culturally conservative Republicans.<BR/><BR/>With respect to sexuality, they're looking for two contradictory things: cover and forgiveness. Jeremiah, does this come at all close to what you've heard?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-15451406961309743052007-09-10T08:57:00.000-07:002007-09-10T08:57:00.000-07:00Well,I don't have a problem with throwing rocks an...Well,<BR/><BR/>I don't have a problem with throwing rocks any direction that seems convenient. :) I just sometimes hit myself in the back of the head!<BR/><BR/>John M. <BR/><BR/>My experience has been that when I do have conversations regarding GOD with non-believers one of three issues seem to always come up, 1) The Law of GOD specifically in regards to sexual morality and original sin 2)Origins and Creation/Evolution<BR/>3) The infallibility of scripture.<BR/><BR/>That's just my experience and maybe other people have others. It seems that most people have already decided for some reason (either a past hurt or the desire to be licentious) against GOD and are just looking for anything to support that decision.<BR/><BR/><BR/>The phrase:<BR/>"The mind justifies what the heart has chosen." seems to govern most(all?)<BR/><BR/>I have had some rather theologically sophisticated conversations with people who I would have never thought really had much clue about any of this stuff.<BR/><BR/>For example the doctrine of original sin. This one is explicitly addressed in commecial after commercial and TV show after TV show over and over again (from an anti-Christ perspective of course)<BR/><BR/>Anyway just my 2 rocks worth. I'm not sure which way they just got thrown though (hopefully not straight up)Jeremiahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09588071199879311707noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-81897824390644350542007-09-10T05:36:00.000-07:002007-09-10T05:36:00.000-07:00Hi John, just quickly "continued to exist with the...Hi John, <BR/><BR/>just quickly "continued to exist with the same theology" might be evidence that they are "stuck" in a time warp rather than a good thing. I like the Reformation idea that the church is "always reforming itself" much better.<BR/><BR/>I have nothing against the Orthodox and I am not opposed to learning from them, and I am certainly not throwing any more rocks at them than I do with Protestants or Catholics... I just hear you and Steve "throwing rocks" pretty consistently at the Prots. and Catholics but never at the Eastern Orthodox. You guys seem enamored with them... I believe my mind is open to learn from them, but it would be easier for me if you presented them in a little more balanced way with some critical review as well as praises. At least that is the way I approach Catholic and Protestant history... I love the good, am aware of the bad and regret the ugly.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28951449455791307672007-09-09T20:15:00.000-07:002007-09-09T20:15:00.000-07:00Joseph,Is there any human being or human instituti...Joseph,<BR/>Is there any human being or human institution on the planet who doesn't have "bad" or "ugly" in their closet? The Orthodox are not immune either. One of the major problems they experienced during the long Russian/Communist domination was the infiltration of the Church institution with the KGB and with "puppet" priests. The amazing thing is that when it was all over the Orthodox church, though weakened (and still recovering) continued to exist with the same theology that she entered that period -- as was the case with the long Muslim domination before the Communist one. <BR/><BR/>Yes, it's easy to romanticize. I don't think we're doing that, but if we are cite some specifics. <BR/><BR/>Although Steve and I have done some reading, had numerous personal discussions, and interacted with a local Antiocan Orthodox priest, (and Steve with Jordan Bajis) neither Steve nor I have made a move to convert. What has happened, and I'll presume to speak for Steve here, but, of course, he can speak for himself, is that we have been personally challenged to think more deeply about the "Faith once Delivered" as Robert would say; and we have been stretched to think outside the boxes that we have been taught to catagorize things through "systematic" theology. In the process I can testify that my personal faith and confidence in God and His Church (the whole Church, not just the Orthodox) and my personal relationship with the Trinity has been deepened and enriched. There is a deep deposit of wealth and treasure there, that if we reject or remain passively ignorant, we cut ourselves off from a huge part of our heritage and legacy as followers of Jesus. This whole thing was going a long time before the Roman Church or the Reformation -- and when one makes the effort (actually there are many very accessible books in English) to dig down through the encrustments that are apparent on the surface, one finds an incredible deposit of truth. I believe that any serious follower of Jesus who is intentional and self-conscious about examining his/her faith will be amazed, enlightened, challenged, and in the end blessed and enriched by what they find. Sure there are bones. Spit them out. Keep an open mind, heart and spirit and be rewarded.<BR/><BR/>Regarding persecuting the Baptists. I think the Orthodox see the Baptists as a sub-Christian cult and a threat to the "true" church. I'm sure that we would disagree with that assesent, and it is certainly wrong to persecute and play power politics. <BR/><BR/>But who are we as Western Christians to throw rocks about persecuting other Christians, including the rape and pillage inflicted on Constantinople during the 5th Crusade? Not to mention Calvin's and other reformer's drowning, burning and otherwise being really mean to the anabaptists and other believers who disagreed with them? (Oops I just did mention it. :) )<BR/><BR/>So, my encouragement to you (with all your extra time!) and all those on the blog would be to buy a couple books and start reading. See if you agree or disagree with what I say. <BR/><BR/>The book I quoted from, "Light from the Christian East" by James R Payton Jr. published by IVP would be a good starting point. Timothy Ware's, "The Orthodox Way" is another good one. And Jordan Bajis' book... the name escapes me, help me out here, Steve.<BR/><BR/>Finally Joseph, and perhaps the most important for you in the present assignment you have, I think that the Eastern Christian approach to the faith (I'm not speaking here of their Liturgy or the outward forms -- although they may in the end have more appeal than the superficiality of contemporary Christian worship)has much more appeal and relevancy to the post-modern pilgrims you're trying to reach than our Western approach, as it is currently expressed in the Roman Catholic Church or the Protestant churches where our roots are. <BR/><BR/>I know you are dealing with Roman Catholicism in Latin American and consequently many with a Catholic background, but you can express an attitude, an approach, a spirit without revealing your source and creating unnecessary conflict and debate. <BR/><BR/>But first you have to open up your own mind to the possibilities of the Eastern Church. I sense that you feel that giving Orthodoxy a hearing is a distraction and is irrelevant to going forward into the 21st Century. I'm not so sure... I wonder if the Eastern approach and mindset, if explored and properly applied, will benefit us greatly as we move outward into the expanse of the Kingdom in the great sea of cultures and subcultures that lie before us waiting to hear some good news. <BR/><BR/>After all, post-modernism is not about "linear", it's about deconstructing the status quo to find what's left. If we deconstruct the status quo that has existed for the past 1000 years plus or minus, we might just end up with something a lot more like Eastern Christianity... I know. Why not just skip back to the New Testament? That's a discussion for another time...and I'll let Steve handle that one...!John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.com