tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post5500377999438079657..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Romans and RevelationBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger92125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-11302319950524830182008-09-12T14:21:00.000-07:002008-09-12T14:21:00.000-07:00Check new post.Check new post.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-89711570336887348612008-09-12T09:32:00.000-07:002008-09-12T09:32:00.000-07:00Yes, the Manifesto might work--but only if it seem...Yes, the Manifesto might work--but only if it seems compelling in some way. I haven't read it, but if Brian is struck by its surface plausibility, that its writers should be taken real seriously, then I'll take it seriously. If it seems to be a politically motivated mere statement of faith, it would be of less value.<BR/><BR/>I've got a Bible question, guys. I'm reading Deuteronomy 6 and 7. We're not to take the name of the LORD in vain. In ch 7 Moses says to take our oaths in His name, v. 13. MY QUESTION: do you think we should understand the Third Commandment strictly construed about our actual misuse of the name of YHWH/Jehovah/The LORD, or in the more general sense of never speaking His name at all, or bringing dishonor to Him by our sins.<BR/><BR/>I for one would like to interpret it strictly and consider sins as strict violations and the implications (as in Jesus's Sermon OTMount)as being ideals. As in: we need to repent and grieve our sins, and we need to just "try harder" when we fail our ideals.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-53255310954474116692008-09-12T03:42:00.000-07:002008-09-12T03:42:00.000-07:00The manifesto looks like a document worth thinking...The manifesto looks like a document worth thinking through to me.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-16781478778079317402008-09-11T04:24:00.000-07:002008-09-11T04:24:00.000-07:00A suggestion for a next topic, one perhaps particu...A suggestion for a next topic, one perhaps particularly pertinent in an election season. A group of evangelical leaders drafted "An Evangelical Manifesto" about a year ago. LeRoy sent us the link (www.evangelicalmanifesto.com)a while back and suggested it might be a blog subject. We could tackle it a chunk at a time (there is a 6-page "executive summary" and the full manifesto, which runs about 20 pages). You can obviously use the link, read the document and let us know if you think there is enough kindling to start a fire.<BR/><BR/>The floor is also open for other suggestions.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-85930201629204598762008-09-10T20:04:00.000-07:002008-09-10T20:04:00.000-07:00me? stubborn? never! perish the thought.... by-the...me? stubborn? never! perish the thought.... <BR/><BR/>by-the-way, I forgot to mention St. John the gentle, from way down south in Georgia ...<BR/><BR/>John, admit it, you ARE loquacious ... although I do admit that your recent emails have been outstanding for their brevity.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-52500821181894533232008-09-10T19:35:00.000-07:002008-09-10T19:35:00.000-07:00Wow, you guys sure blew a lot of hot air today whi...Wow, you guys sure blew a lot of hot air today while I was working my behind off.<BR/><BR/>Joseph, "loquacious"? -- thanks for the "compliment"! I've been trying to cut down, and now you've given me a familiar label to live up to. You may be sorry... I might even make a "Meadows move" at some point. For you later arrivers to the post, that is one very, very long post cut into two very long posts.<BR/><BR/>Also, Joseph, it's not politically correct to use the word "handicapped". You should call yourself apostolically "challenged". <BR/><BR/>I was just reading some of your post to Vicki, and she asked if you put the words "stubborn" and "good friend" in your self description.<BR/>I don't know if she meant that were both stubborn and a good friend or a stubborn, good friend.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, with all locquaciousness aside, you are a good friend.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-69041811661604291892008-09-10T18:17:00.000-07:002008-09-10T18:17:00.000-07:00Hello Brian, Joe and Randy! It's good to meet you ...Hello Brian, Joe and Randy! It's good to meet you Bruce. It sounds like the time is close for a new topic. I'll deliberate until it's birthed...Patrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-89401028896622117082008-09-10T16:11:00.000-07:002008-09-10T16:11:00.000-07:00HI Gang, "moving on" meant to a new topic. I thoug...HI Gang, "moving on" meant to a new topic. I thought that the question was asked, "Should we move on"? Perhaps, I misread an entry. <BR/><BR/>Saint Joseph, I do receive your characterization of me as a "radical" as a compliment. Mmmmmm, could I be regressing in my older age? In my BC days, my classmates at the Naval Academy nick-named me "Easy Rider" after Peter Fonda in the movie by the same name. <BR/><BR/>In fact, one "friend," whom I hope to see at our 35th Reunion in two weeks, stated (following my conversion, literally transformation), "First, it was Jimmy Hendrix, then it was Easy Rider, now it is Jesus. Just give it time and this phase will pass too." Thirty-six years later, I am still "stuck" in this phase!!!!Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-89973225013239399232008-09-10T15:56:00.000-07:002008-09-10T15:56:00.000-07:00So again, are we just trying to understand controv...So again, are we just trying to understand controversial stuff in Wright and McLaren or maybe--maybe?--digest everything we know and come up with something even better?<BR/><BR/>If so, then I ask, is there anything preventing us from wholeheartedly accept everything they both say, all at once, and with what we already believe? Just to light a fuse, that's all I'm doing.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-41614913598502157542008-09-10T15:53:00.000-07:002008-09-10T15:53:00.000-07:00Hi Patrick, good to meet you here.About bloated se...Hi Patrick, good to meet you here.<BR/>About bloated sentences, I learned how to write from Alistair MacIntyre's After Virtue, which commonly had sentences seven or eight lines long. The difference between his and mine is that his writing needs all those words to say what he had to say.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-43551702757552277782008-09-10T15:49:00.000-07:002008-09-10T15:49:00.000-07:00hi Patrick ... Randy, 'radical' is high praise com...hi Patrick ... <BR/><BR/>Randy, 'radical' is high praise coming me ... notice I called myself a bar hoping non-saint ... truer than you think and not at all false humility.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-68574598868097806602008-09-10T15:47:00.000-07:002008-09-10T15:47:00.000-07:00Hey, Patrick, great to hear from you and get caugh...Hey, Patrick, great to hear from you and get caught up just a bit. We will designate you as Brother Pin, he who deflates the gaseous pretensions of ... some of us!<BR/><BR/>Randy, I assume that your desire to "move on" is either (a) a coded indication of your political affiliations (i.e., a secret member of moveon.org), or (b) your indication that you think I'm full ofBrian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-86344919253729741512008-09-10T14:45:00.000-07:002008-09-10T14:45:00.000-07:00Sorry for the unnecessary inflated vocabulary in m...Sorry for the unnecessary inflated vocabulary in my post. My "courageous" brother just wrote a couple paragraphs of the most bloated sentences I have ever read.Patrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-49563800477020028742008-09-10T14:41:00.000-07:002008-09-10T14:41:00.000-07:00Smokin Joe, some of that had contradictory traces ...Smokin Joe, some of that had contradictory traces of sarcasm that would have gone unnoticed had you not encouraged me to read it.<BR/><BR/>I hereby commit to reentering the CovThinklings roundtable of cyber fellowship for another season, and to participate in the discussion as much as my finite understanding and limited experience permits, be it relevant.<BR/><BR/>For those that are unaware, I have relocated to San Antonio, TX, where I currently live with Thomas, Beth, Caleb and Alina Hernandez. I am working at Starbucks while freelancing minor graphic design jobs. There is an interesting church situation here and I do not believe it to be a coincidence that my desires and experiences would fit well with the local ecclesial landscape.Patrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-23596288034305398872008-09-10T13:41:00.000-07:002008-09-10T13:41:00.000-07:00How does this look?How does this look?Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-29997971329805573582008-09-10T13:31:00.000-07:002008-09-10T13:31:00.000-07:00Ready for a new direction. Sorry for being so sile...Ready for a new direction. Sorry for being so silent. I, too, have started teaching again . . . two classes of psychology at a Christian High School (all juniors and seniors). Love it! But it has filled a lot of my discretionary time. Of course, just catching up after being away almost a month has also been a challenge. So, I may be doing more "listening" than "talking" for a while. Thanks, Joseph for your fun post . . . I noted that I am not listed as a Saint or as a Brother, just a radical. Interesting, I will try to find a picture that would aptly match that description. :-}Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-2163367620436636092008-09-10T11:26:00.000-07:002008-09-10T11:26:00.000-07:00Ah, Bruce (and others), we are making another run ...Ah, Bruce (and others), we are making another run at the Post entitled "Romans and Revelation"--check that out and please return! I was making an attempt (I suspect fairly unsuccessfully)to test Wright's contention that Revelation and Romans, properly read, give us an understanding of the Gospel that is wider than 'the gospel is how you go to heaven when you die."<BR/><BR/>For me, I don't find much to quarrel with in the quote that Steve H included.<BR/><BR/>Great list of honorifics, Joseph! Thanks for that delightful and enjoyable burst of creativity.<BR/><BR/>And to anyone/everyone who may be reading: blogs tend to track with the folks who participate, so please speak up! We're happy to try out some new directions, or formats, or topics, or whatever else you might enjoy responding to.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-39551053840181244992008-09-10T11:13:00.000-07:002008-09-10T11:13:00.000-07:00I agree that Brian is 'great' but I seriously doub...I agree that Brian is 'great' but I seriously doubt that you, Bruce, are 'the fool' ... we gotta come with a better one than that ... maybe barbarian? (as in Irwin McManus' book, the Barbarian Way)<BR/><BR/>but please don't forget our dear fellow contributors and core covenant thinkers, Bro. John the Loquacious, and St. Steven the hugely Humble .... <BR/><BR/>then there are a bunch of others who have forsaken us in our hour of vacationer inactivity and blogger burn-out, Dr. Bob the wise, St. Michael the younger, disciple of George MacDonald, St. Mike the elder, lurking silently in the background... Bro. Jeff the timid, fearless apostle to his neighborhood with the gospel of the American Idol, the courageous young Curry brothers who feint on the way when there doth wax excessive theological jargon (and one too many book reviews), St. Jamie the younger in CR only slightly angry (but not depressed!) but out to save covenant "Y" from extinction, the reclusive monk John-the-musician, and who else? St. David the early church historian in North Carolina, and St. Don the cheerfully radical Methodist in Mobile ... St. LeRoy the silent, and "he-is-full-of-shit" Radical Randy Reinhardt ...digital giant and Watchman Nee devotee Matt 'bull-dawg' Brennan... and Jeremiah, the neo-platonic, <I>'rape and pillage before you burn'</I> prophet...<BR/><BR/>... and we won't start on all of our fearless friends and fellow pilgrims who are digitally challenged ... St. Kevin, St. Gary, St. Dennis, and St. Paul... <BR/><BR/>I better stop here, this is starting to remind me of the final episode of M.A.S.H. where everyone said goodbye...<BR/><BR/>call me smokin' bar-hoppin, non-st. joe the slightly depressed but ever pessimistic, apostolically handicapped ... who won't take 'no' for an answer....Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-76387704084806576222008-09-10T10:58:00.000-07:002008-09-10T10:58:00.000-07:00I'm home, but doubt that I'll be able to catch up ...I'm home, but doubt that I'll be able to catch up with all the threads of this conversation.<BR/><BR/>I can add one comment to the discussion about Wright's thinking. In "What St. Paul Really Said" Wright summarizes the gospel this way:<BR/><BR/>"My proposal has been that ‘the gospel’ is not, for Paul, a message about ‘how one gets saved’, in an individual and a-historical sense. It is a fourfold announcement about Jesus:<BR/><BR/>1. In Jesus of Nazareth, specifically in his cross, the decisive victory has been won over all the powers of evil, including sin and death themselves.<BR/><BR/>2.In Jesus’ resurrection the New Age has dawned, inaugurating the long-awaited time when the prophecies would be fulfilled, when Israel’s exile would be over, and the whole world would be addressed by the one creator God.<BR/><BR/>3. The crucified and risen Jesus was, all along, Israel’s Messiah, her representative king.<BR/><BR/>4. Jesus was therefore also the Lord, the true king of the world, the one at whose name every knee would bow.<BR/><BR/>It is, moreover, a double and dramatic announcement about God:<BR/><BR/>1. The God of Israel is the one true God, and the pagan deities are mere idols.<BR/><BR/>2. The God of Israel is now made known in and through Jesus himself." (p.60)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Earlier in the same chapter Wright says that in some circles of the church the gospel has come to be considered a description of how people get saved -- that Christ takes our sin and we his righteousness. He goes on to say:<BR/><BR/>"...I am perfectly comfortable with what people normally 'mean' when they say 'the gospel'. I just don't think it is what Paul meant means. In other words, I am not denying that the usual meanings are things people ought to say, to preach about, to believe. I simply wouldn't use the word 'gospel' to denote those things"steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-17309956532558276872008-09-10T09:07:00.000-07:002008-09-10T09:07:00.000-07:00Hmm...don't we already have them down pat already?...Hmm...don't we already have them down pat already?<BR/>(ha)<BR/>Just looking for something more doable, something more rabbinic. All us old guys with beer and beards, citing rabbinic precedents, with an occasional young upstart in our midst remembering the exact citation from the fourth century. We've got Smokin' Joe, Bruce the Fool, and Brian the Great (lending some gravitas), and when we're done, we'll all go shoot some Caribou or fish for salmon by hand in the icy rivers.Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28340407852749119672008-09-10T08:48:00.000-07:002008-09-10T08:48:00.000-07:00Bruce, you forgot to include St. Paul (Romans) or ...Bruce, you forgot to include St. Paul (Romans) or St. John the Beloved (Revelations).Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-15995831891064851672008-09-10T08:18:00.000-07:002008-09-10T08:18:00.000-07:00I need a little help here.Are we trying to figure ...I need a little help here.<BR/>Are we trying to figure out what McLaren is saying, what Wright is saying, what we together believe to be true, what the brothers used to teach, or all/none/some of the above?Brucehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05791587899672940996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67394040053538443292008-09-10T07:25:00.000-07:002008-09-10T07:25:00.000-07:00No, I understand Wright the way you do, but tned t...No, I understand Wright the way you do, but tned to feel that McLaren loses grip on some aspects of truth in his desire to see neglected aspects receive their proper place and emphasis.<BR/><BR/>So: Revelation. Does this final book of Scripture teach what many of us perhaps grew up with--a dramatic, apocalyptice ending of this present world in all its aspects and a kind of complete starting over again?<BR/><BR/>Observations: in chap 1 there are several time references: "to show his servants what must soon take place" (1:1), "the time is near" (1:3), "Look, he is coming with the clouds" (1:7), "what is now and what will take place later" (1:19) We might add references to God/Jesus as Alpha/Omega, First/Last, and God as the one who was, is and is to come.<BR/><BR/>Jesus is identified as Christ/Messiah, the faithful witness and firstborn from the dead AND the ruler of the kings of the earth... he is also "him who loves us and has gfreed us from our sins by his blood and made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father... the pierced one who will cause the people of the earth to mourn... and the one who holds the keys of death and Hades.<BR/><BR/>John's readers are those who are called into the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Christ (1:9).<BR/><BR/>There are lots of Genesis "echoes" throughout the book (as there are in the 4th Gospel).<BR/><BR/><BR/>Hmmm...not sure what this suggests. Is Revelation so far showing that the "present evil age" is completely discontinuous with "the age to come," the new heaven and earth discontinuous with the present heaven and earth?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-47899013943443158512008-09-10T06:33:00.000-07:002008-09-10T06:33:00.000-07:00great ... remember Brian, we not really talking ab...great ... remember Brian, we not really talking about an either/or scenario here ... but rather a matter of emphasis and balance. <BR/><BR/>I have heard Simpson and Mumford make a distinction between the 'gospel' ... which has been preached pretty much all over the world, and the 'gospel of the kingdom' which has not (by their implication) yet been preached in the nations. <BR/><BR/>So my understanding of Wright is NOT that he is denying the new birth or the need for personal regeneration ... but rather that he is saying that individual redemption is not the ultimate end of God's purposes... rather similar to Simpson and Mumford.<BR/><BR/>do you read him differently?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-47220820733615950882008-09-10T05:25:00.000-07:002008-09-10T05:25:00.000-07:00OK, lemme work on it... but anyone else feel free ...OK, lemme work on it... but anyone else feel free to make the first attempt!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.com