tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post6595882908461884138..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Deep Church IBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72482323399072319802009-10-28T16:21:49.330-07:002009-10-28T16:21:49.330-07:00Pot starts boiling at next post...Pot starts boiling at next post...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-18478708737470353082009-10-28T09:26:28.454-07:002009-10-28T09:26:28.454-07:00I get the impression no one wants to put themselve...I get the impression no one wants to put themselves out there and make an argument ... either pro or con about Belcher. You have all probably gotten used to me starting that ... <br />I certainly liked his book, although there are some things I am still processing. I think I am at about the 150 page mark. <br /><br />I am temporarily without internet access at home ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-70087810532364769572009-10-26T15:49:55.529-07:002009-10-26T15:49:55.529-07:00it is hard for me to disagree with that. I have to...it is hard for me to disagree with that. I have to say it is refreshing to read something that is not angry, and not black and white, for or against.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-66432655566252171872009-10-26T14:34:49.698-07:002009-10-26T14:34:49.698-07:00From Belcher, on postfoundationalism, pp. 84-85:
...From Belcher, on postfoundationalism, pp. 84-85:<br /><br />First, [we] must be postfoundational... there is no unassailable certainty, even for believers.. Second, the deep church believes in foundations... built on belief not reason.<br /><br />Third, we stand in what Newbigin calls "proper confidence" [that is] chastened, humble, realizing we are sinners... [and valuing] multiperspectivalism...<br /><br />Finally... we are not timid. Our confidence is not in ourselves... but in knowing tht God knows all things and has chosen us to be part of his story."Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-52768068493927715082009-10-26T12:42:01.869-07:002009-10-26T12:42:01.869-07:00I am here...the value of discussing Belcher to me ...I am here...the value of discussing Belcher to me would be in taking ideas off of a particular page and addressing them...i.e. Foundationalism, "bounded set" thinking, "corelationist model"...all significant concepts. These or any other ideas could help us get the best of his observations.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09536846888583909874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-56195546540317706262009-10-26T07:47:16.572-07:002009-10-26T07:47:16.572-07:00Brian: looks like this is a party of three so far ...Brian: looks like this is a party of three so far .... :-(Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-1577544303196418342009-10-26T07:46:42.592-07:002009-10-26T07:46:42.592-07:00Hey John, we had a discussion about the Flory and ...Hey John, we had a discussion about the Flory and Miller book back around August 24th with 48 comments on it... you were probably busy at that time and missed the discussion. Look back in the archives for the end of August ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-56461327971986376752009-10-26T04:25:59.484-07:002009-10-26T04:25:59.484-07:00No! An academic/sociologist/researcher, not a nov...No! An academic/sociologist/researcher, not a novelist/writer.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-59112868094126539172009-10-25T20:00:15.934-07:002009-10-25T20:00:15.934-07:00The Donald Miller of "Blue Like Jazz" et...The Donald Miller of "Blue Like Jazz" et al?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-70894718979081071032009-10-25T17:31:12.952-07:002009-10-25T17:31:12.952-07:00Richard Flory and Donald E. Miller. 2008. Finding ...Richard Flory and Donald E. Miller. 2008. <i>Finding Faith: The Spiritual Quest of the Post-Boomer Generation.</i> Piscataway, NJ: Rutgers University Press.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67471582483133264432009-10-25T16:54:02.064-07:002009-10-25T16:54:02.064-07:00Who is Fory and Miller?Who is Fory and Miller?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-87524115508330829072009-10-25T14:52:17.180-07:002009-10-25T14:52:17.180-07:00It's interesting that Belcher's analysis m...It's interesting that Belcher's analysis mirrors some of the discussion we've had here; not that we've landed exactly where B has, but still--makes me feel kinda smart!<br /><br />I was also struck by Flory and Miller's assessment of the future prospects of their four types, and their sense that the resistor/traditionalist position does not appear to them to have much of a future. Of course, F&M's "resisters" and B's "traditionalists" aren't eactly the same, but close enough.<br /><br />I thought Belcher did a good job of defining the emerging church over against the traditonalists, and found his "7 protests of the emerging church" a pretty fair summary of both sides' positions. Theemerging folks protest what they see as the tradiotnalists' captivity to Enlightenment rationalism, narrow view of salvation, believing before belonging, uncontextualized worship, ineffective preaching, weak ecclesiology, and tribalism.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-82666742615673789692009-10-25T12:03:25.797-07:002009-10-25T12:03:25.797-07:00Sorry: I meant to say that Belcher's third way...Sorry: I meant to say that Belcher's third way represents <i>"Reclaimers"</i> rather than "recoverers."Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-34549036360213094362009-10-25T12:00:50.868-07:002009-10-25T12:00:50.868-07:00Actually, it strikes me that he is proposing "...Actually, it strikes me that he is proposing "recoverers" as the "third way" between resisters and innovators. By-the-way, he does mentions "appropriators" (seeker sensitive mega church) but pretty much dismisses them with a few sentences. If I remember right, he calls them "pragmatics" or something like that. So, interestingly, all four "types" from Flory and Miller show up in Belcher, but he only focuses on three of them.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-51118508352321326412009-10-25T04:35:58.985-07:002009-10-25T04:35:58.985-07:00Reading Belcher after just finishing Flory and Mil...Reading Belcher after just finishing Flory and Miller's "Finding Faith" has been fun, and illuminating. In F&M's typology, Belcher is attempting to find a "third way" between resisters (F&M's term for Belcher's "traditionalists") and innovators (F&M's term for Belcher's "emerging church"). More later, after I get back from my innovative traditionalist worship conversation-event!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-8573081091735170002009-10-24T20:27:00.975-07:002009-10-24T20:27:00.975-07:00I'm going to have to read along on this one. ...I'm going to have to read along on this one. Can't read it at this point.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-81002685304146096532009-10-24T07:07:57.354-07:002009-10-24T07:07:57.354-07:00really good book -- I look forward to hearing ever...really good book -- I look forward to hearing everyone's comments on it.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.com