tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post7657552363663453085..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Wisdom Needed?Brian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-38954734708331475232008-05-20T05:02:00.000-07:002008-05-20T05:02:00.000-07:00I've been out of town a few days. Thanks, Chris, f...I've been out of town a few days. Thanks, Chris, for bringing your experience to the table in this conversation.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63382698710892945562008-05-18T14:13:00.000-07:002008-05-18T14:13:00.000-07:00Amen! To both all that Chris brings, and to the f...Amen! To both all that Chris brings, and to the fellowship of sinners (who are also becoming better friends)!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-27953735232486939982008-05-16T15:34:00.000-07:002008-05-16T15:34:00.000-07:00please include me in the fellow friends and sinner...please include me in the fellow friends and sinners category ... thanks Chris for bringing an important voice to this discussion ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33252869057700953152008-05-16T11:10:00.000-07:002008-05-16T11:10:00.000-07:00Chris, I have been very grateful to reconnect with...Chris, I have been very grateful to reconnect with you after many years... actually feel like I'm getting to know you better now than the more passing contact we had in the past. So let's be fellow sinners and fellow friends! I appreciate the lack-of-trauma-as-causal-factor perspective you offered; I understand that to be true for others also.<BR/><BR/>There is a new post up, but that does not require us to abandon the conversation here.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-40773452171668031772008-05-16T09:47:00.000-07:002008-05-16T09:47:00.000-07:00Brian, hanging with me certainly makes you a frien...Brian, hanging with me certainly makes you a friend to this sinner. =) Thank you for posting this in scenario in the first place.<BR/><BR/>I will make one additional comment regarding the probable trauma or injury that leads one into homosexual behavior that Steve eluded to - and i speak from personal experience. I can't find one episode of trauma, abuse, warped fatherhood, or any other supposed cause in my own life (and believe me, i've looked). I can see my own sinful nature, my own transgression, etc ... but I have never been raped, abused by an older relative, traumatized by exploitation ... and I have an amazing, Godly father. Its not to say that Steve doesn't speak rightly for many in my shoes - but there are some (me included) that can't point to such an event.chris hyatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07258588692458046267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-69319169213495438542008-05-16T04:29:00.000-07:002008-05-16T04:29:00.000-07:00Hey, doesn't hanging with you guys give me any cre...Hey, doesn't hanging with you guys give me any cred as a friend of sinners?<BR/><BR/>So as we wave a fond farewell to my hypothetical gay gal--not sure how much help we were to her, but perhaps we were of some help to each other--we turn towards the brand new post that looms just over the next rise...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-86888745795924978642008-05-15T20:48:00.000-07:002008-05-15T20:48:00.000-07:00emotionally spent?! Come on John, cowboy up... thi...emotionally spent?! Come on John, cowboy up... this has been thoroughly invigorating. <BR/><BR/>I met with an old friend tonight ... who has a relative who is gay, has integrity, is a person of faith, and has faithfully been in the same relationship for over 15 years. My friend finds it impoossible to turn his back on his loved one, and call him a "bad person." I understand... and yet, I am not settled on the issue. Maybe we just don't understand how far we have fallen, and how great and awesome is his grace...<BR/><BR/>This sort of discussion is academic until it hits close to home and you can pull up faces to represent those we are talking about. <BR/><BR/>...and obviously the issue is not going away anytime soon, so a dry-run at rehersing our hermaneutics is not a bad thing. <BR/><BR/>Brian, don't repent yet...just be open to being a friend to sinners of all kinds (God is no respecter of persons-he sends the rain on the just and the unjust) ... let's let faith working through love lead the way ... Moses allowed divorce because of the 'hardness of our hearts' ... and 2000 years after Jesus, our hearts are still pretty hard....<BR/><BR/>so...as we conclude another discussion thread inconclusively, what do we talk about next? Divorce and remmariage? or Buddhism? or something else?<BR/><BR/>I just love 'doing' theology<BR/><BR/>jJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-2238598658815191452008-05-15T20:10:00.000-07:002008-05-15T20:10:00.000-07:00Brian, I am not advocating that behaviors on the "...Brian, I am not advocating that behaviors on the "sexual continuum" are supported or even allowed by scripture. I was saying that this is what people experience psycologically. How we act out our propensities, desires, orientation, whatever you want to call it, is another matter.<BR/><BR/>Your point about "religious orientation" (Buddhism) is interesting. I think it would be a good discussion for a future thread.<BR/><BR/>But I would agree with Joseph that we're talking apples and oranges (fruits and nuts?) -- oops, some of my remaining prejudice just popped out didn't it?<BR/><BR/>Our sexuality is such an intrinsic part of us. It involves our identity, our relationships, and, as you have mentioned, the image of God. And it is affected by so many complex synergistic factors: environment, the actions of others toward us, role-models, and that mysterious inner drive that comes from genetics or...?<BR/><BR/>Our religious preference seems to be very deeply affected by our culture, family, and geography. Obviously it also involves God's sovereignty in some mysterious way. At this point, I think that trying to have both conversations would be difficult. I would recommend saving this one 'till later. Perhaps next?<BR/><BR/>I think we are all in agreement that we need to figure out how to reach out to those with same-sex orientation in regards to evangelism. There are obviously a lot of barriers -- our own prejudices, and the prejudices that gay people have toward conservative Christians.<BR/><BR/>I have to be honest, I think I have pressed my arguments beyond my own personal comfort zone. I saw the report tonight about the Calif. Supreme Court over-turning the ban there on same-sex marriage. On one level, whatever others do or how they define "marriage" legally, it won't destroy traditional marriage between one man and one woman, so I don't see any reason to become hysterical about the issue. On the other hand, I am not comfortable calling it "marriage".<BR/><BR/>I ran an errand with my wife after dinner. In the dept. store with lots of people, I tried to imagine what it would be like if I were surrounded by same-sex couples holding hands, kissing and publicly demonstrating affection toward one another. I was not comfortable with that scenario either. So, in spite of how I have been arguing, I am still conflicted about the whole issue. But I still have compassion for individual people caught up in the "issue".<BR/><BR/>I feel emotionally spent with the whole discussion at the moment, so I'm going to sign off.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-32569042075706059832008-05-15T16:30:00.000-07:002008-05-15T16:30:00.000-07:00I am prepared to BEGIN (not "belong) the long and ...I am prepared to BEGIN (not "belong) the long and difficult process of repentance...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-73867323144578303882008-05-15T16:28:00.000-07:002008-05-15T16:28:00.000-07:00Joseph, I don't think the two issues are quite as ...Joseph, I don't think the two issues are quite as distinct or separable as perhaps you do, but am happy not to push in that direction. I was responding to John's suggestion that the church has been guilty of a double standard with regard to sexual sin, and wondered if, based on what I understood to be the reasons behind John's position (John, you there? Time to correct my misinterpretation), we are not likewise guilty of a double standard with respect to people's faith commitments (as opposed to their sexual commitments). So I'm not sure I totally buy the apples-oranges idea...anyone else up for the admittedly daunting task of straightening me out?<BR/><BR/>I have pressed my position a bit because I wanted to see if we buy it/think it's Biblical. I think it is also vitally important to maintain latitude and flexibility in our encounters with real people in real life situations. Of course, if my position is wrong, that would be helpful to know! <BR/><BR/>If we "now know" that sexuality is a continuum, with many fully appropriate sexual orientations,as opposed to my understanding that Scripture views sexual activity outside of heterosexual marriage as contrary to God's design/purpose, then I am prepared to belong the long and difficult process of repentance. Many sincere believers were wrong on slavery, wrong on women (although this is still contested), and wrong on other matters, it is hardly outside the realm of possibility that I am wrong on sexuality.<BR/><BR/>I fully accept Joseph's (and others') points about missional outreach, the need to meet and engage people where they are, not where we are, on their turf not ours, to be patient, long-suffering, winsome, gentle, compassionate, etc.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-23565796442230813642008-05-15T13:16:00.000-07:002008-05-15T13:16:00.000-07:00Brian … Buddhism! Discussing this in the context o...Brian … Buddhism! Discussing this in the context of the major World Religion requires another post and another 50 to 100 comments, does it not? I’m not denying the validity of your point, but at least in discussing heterosexual and homosexual ethics, we are talking about two different kinds of apples – with Buddhism aren’t you jumping over to Oranges? I can think of a host of new and complex issues that raises. <BR/><BR/>Steve and John: I would agree with Steve’s view of how to counsel people to handle the marriage covenant. However, interestingly, it has been a long time since I have had to confront that issue. In dealing with secular, unchurched 20-somethings… almost none of them have been married even once, precisely because they don’t want to get divorced. So, for the most part, they just “hook-up” with someone until the relation breaks down, and then move on to the next partner. No covenant-breaking for them, at least not in the legal sense. So … I have a whole different set of issues to consider. <BR/><BR/>John, I have not had time to read through the paper you sent yet. I’ll try to get to it this weekend. I repeat to all: my desire is not to revisit ethical or moral standards, but rather examine our own hearts about our attitudes toward various kinds of sinners, of which I am undoubtedly the worst offender. Why do we find it easier to be a ‘friend’ to the one who has failed in marriage, than the one who struggles with a same sex orientation? Or be a friend to a Muslim, Buddhist or new age agnostic for that matter? Jesus was criticized for being a 'friend of sinners.' if we are not criticized for the same thing, are we truly following him?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-29474136980774510112008-05-15T12:02:00.000-07:002008-05-15T12:02:00.000-07:00Not trying to get us off-topic here, but--oughtn't...Not trying to get us off-topic here, but--oughtn't we also to make an argument parallel to John's concerning other religions? In a fallen world, there are many--billions!--who do not find Christianity attractive or true. Some have sincerely tried, but find themselves unable to sustain a meaningful Christian life. They have felt this way their whole lives, never feeling any "pull" from Christian things, but experiencing deep and profound desire to live as a Buddhist... Doesn't the double standard argument work here as well?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-16574187288037370682008-05-15T11:56:00.000-07:002008-05-15T11:56:00.000-07:00Oops sorry. I didn't intend to post back-to-back....Oops sorry. I didn't intend to post back-to-back. When published the other post, Steve's had come in before it, and I just started responding to him.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-53968529036089471142008-05-15T11:35:00.000-07:002008-05-15T11:35:00.000-07:00Good point, Steve, about drawing from some of the ...Good point, Steve, about drawing from some of the resources of Exodus International, and others who minister to homosexuals. I do know that they have a pretty significant relapse rate even among some of their leaders, but so do many drug programs, so I'm not suggesting that invalidates what they are doing.<BR/><BR/>If we listen to those who deal with these issues, I think we will find that there is a continuum of sexual identity and attraction. Some will desire to change and be able to do so, with counsel and ministry. Others may never totally be without some same sex attraction but still chose to live heterosexually.<BR/><BR/>Then there are those, whom I assume that you all have talked to who, because of their cultural influences and their Christian values have tried mightily to be "free" from same-sex attraction, even to the point of being married and having a family, but have seen no change.<BR/><BR/>I had one man who, when I suggested to him that he had made a choice (he had left the Christian community to live openly gay), told me this: "I cannot remember ever not being attracted to other men. I tried everything to deny it by acting like I was interested in girls in Jr. High and High school -- even dating. But I never felt any sexual attraction to women, only men. Finally, as an adult I spent many nights laying on the floor in the early hours of the morning and crying out to God to 'take it away', He never did."<BR/><BR/>When I told him that his only option was to live with the attraction but maintain a celibate life-style, he raised the same question that Joseph has. He said to me, "Yes, you have to chose not to sin heterosexually, but you have a legitimate outlet for your sexuality with your wife. <BR/><BR/>He had finally decided that he was "made this way", and that God would not condemn him for having a same-sex partner. I had no more to say to him at that point. As I write this, I can't imagine actually saying anything else and condoning his decision, and yet...<BR/><BR/>One other issue that we haven't raised is the issue of celibacy among heterosexual singles. The Bible is clear about fornication, and the church has interpreted this to also pertain to premarital sex between engaged couples before marriage. I think we all believe that the scriptures speak clearly on this. <BR/><BR/>Joseph mentioned the "don't ask, don't tell" policy of some churches in regard to homosexuality. How many of you have found yourselves taking this hands-off approach when doing premarriage counseling/mentoring? <BR/><BR/>It's really easy to just by-pass the issue and avoid the potential discomfort. Again, are we creating a double standard?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-75794765943880640882008-05-15T09:48:00.000-07:002008-05-15T09:48:00.000-07:00I would agree with Joseph that we need to examine ...I would agree with Joseph that we need to examine our interpretations of scripture in light of our prejudices. Those who interpret Jesus statements on divorce broadly, do so based on Rabbinical interpretations of OT scriptures, along with how certain Hebrew words are translated. Those who have a more inclusive interpretation of homosexuality do the same. Have we created a double standard?<BR/><BR/>It seems to come down to how we interpret same-sex attraction. Is it Genetic or is it a life-style choice. Obviously it's not that cut and dried, but the way we approach that issue will shape our outcomes.<BR/><BR/>Brian has raised the issue of original creation. I totally agree that it was not a part of original creation. God created humankind male and female.<BR/><BR/>Before the fall there was no adultery, no fornication, no divorce. So, as I said earlier, that is the ideal, but we are not dealing with an ideal, unfallen world. Consequently, we have to deal with these issues, homosexuality included.<BR/><BR/>The fourth person named in scripture murdered his brother. Prostitution, polygamy, mistresses, fornication and divorce seemed to arise rather early in history -- and male on male sex was there by the time of Lot. Have we created a hierarchy of sins?<BR/><BR/>So does God, through the natural processes of procreation and genetic combinations allow (cause, depending on your theology) some people to be born with a propensity toward same-sex attraction? He does allow some to be born with two sets of sexual organs. Could it be possible that he allows some to be born with the "wrong" set of genitals? ie, those who feel that they are actually the opposite sex of their physical characteristics?<BR/><BR/>It seems that our perception and interpretation have not allowed us to ask these questions. But our society seems to be forcing us to ask these questions about same-sex, trans-gender issues, in the same way that it has forced us to reexamine the divorce/remarriage issue.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-4625643543786009792008-05-15T06:18:00.000-07:002008-05-15T06:18:00.000-07:00Concerning the original topic:A person who has eng...Concerning the original topic:<BR/><BR/>A person who has engaged in the homosexual life almost certainly has emotional scars that were contributing factors. I am no expert in these matters, but I have not yet dealt with a homosexual person who has not been damaged in some clear way which contributed to the orientation. Even if homosexual unions were legit (and not against the nature of God's creation), how could I contribute to such a union rather than to prayerfully and lovingly work toward the healing of the damage leading to it?<BR/><BR/>In this discussion, no one has suggested searching out what we can learn from our brothers and sisters in Exodus International and other such ministries. Most of these ministries are led by and/or have developed from the insights of those with a homosexual orientation, most of whom engaged in homosexual activity priviously. Don't they have something to say to this?steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-82440133132530564692008-05-15T06:16:00.000-07:002008-05-15T06:16:00.000-07:00There clearly is a subjective element in my counse...There clearly is a subjective element in my counseling someone in regards to remarriage.<BR/><BR/>There are three primary principles that I try to use as a starting point. 1) If the marriage / divorce happened before conversion then I think that I cannot hold them to the same standard as someone who breaks covenant when in covenant with Christ. 2)If there was clearly adultery (and possibly other covenant breaking behavior) on the part of one person, then I would be more open to remarrying the other person. 3) If an unbeliever has chosen to leave a believer then as I understand 1 Cor. 7, the believer is not bound, i.e. free to remarry. <BR/><BR/>If one partner has remarried, then as I understand it from the Old Testament law, the other partner may not remarry the person from whom he/she has bee divorced.<BR/><BR/>If there is any discernible hope for reconciliation, then I would strongly discourage remarriage.<BR/><BR/>If there is discernible emotional baggage, then I would strongly discourage remarriage.<BR/><BR/>If a person has clearly not dealt with factors in his/her own life which may have contributed to divorce, then I would strongly discourage remarriage -- even if that person was not technically "at fault."steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30428988316032493842008-05-15T04:45:00.000-07:002008-05-15T04:45:00.000-07:00thanks Steve, the distinction has certainly been h...thanks Steve, the distinction has certainly been helpful to me. It frees me up to pursue lost and hurting people without having to worry about some of these 'pastoral' issues, although, if I am successful in gathering them around Christ, they will have to process these issues in the light of the scriptures themselves at some point. <BR/><BR/>thanks Brian, for your response. Like Steve, at one point I devoted myself to a careful study of divorce and remarriage "with fear and trembling." I agree with you about issues such physical abuse, or heavy involvement in pornography. <BR/><BR/>However, if we take the words of Jesus seriously, there MUST be some situations where a drug user, or an adulterer is the guilty party in a messy divorce, and then they repent and end up in our churches wanting to remarry (or already remarried) in such a way that their second marriages reflect adultery from the perspective of Jesus’ plain words. It sounds like Steve might counsel such a person to remain single, if not married, but that is a tough sell that most of us would not attempt. Are we being influenced by our culture here rather than the scriptures? Why would we apply a strict standard of life-time celibacy to a homosexual but not a heterosexual in such situations? Is it because there is a scriptural difference between homosexual and heterosexual sin in such cases or is it really because homosexuality is more repulsive to us? In other words, we don’t like homosexuals so we can love and extend mercy more easily to the heterosexual sinner?<BR/><BR/>I don’t mean to keep pressing the point, but I really do think that beyond our theology, or underpinning our theology there is lurking raw prejudice that must be expunged in order to truly ‘do theology’ in this context (I’m not pointing that at anyone other than myself). <BR/><BR/>I’m not trying to get us to change our theology…I’m trying get us to deconstruct it to separate our prejudice from true scriptural conviction. By all means we should retain scriptural conviction (after a thorough re-examination) but throw out the judgment and prejudice.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-31249982388286284602008-05-14T17:41:00.000-07:002008-05-14T17:41:00.000-07:00Yes, I should have responded to the question of di...Yes, I should have responded to the question of divorce/remarriage. I'm where I think Steve is--a good deal of fear and trembling. I'm not a Gothardian absolutist, and would understand "except for marital unfaithfulness" more broadly than physical adultery. Otherwise, I think we complicitly encourage people toward adultery, just so they can get the terrible marriage over with. I think a husband who beats his wife is guilty of marital unfaithfulness/adultery.<BR/><BR/>I like your idea of a relationship fast for those coming off failed/broken marriages or relationships. I don't think my starting point would ever be, "OK, your only option moving forward is lifetime celibacy." Like you, I would want to do all I could to help them search Scripture, seek God, receive healing ministry, discipleship, etc. and make their choice before God. I'm well aware that, whatever I may say, they can go across the street to get whatever advice they want. Maybe that's the real point: "Who does God want you to be and become? What do you think you-in-Christ looks like?"Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-32405257241655198292008-05-14T16:56:00.000-07:002008-05-14T16:56:00.000-07:00The divorce remarriage issue is tough. Is the matt...The divorce remarriage issue is tough. Is the matter of "hardness of heart" still a factor? Gary North published a book (by George Grant, I think) titled "Second Chance" -- which you can read on freebooks.com -- which makes a "Biblical" case for there being times when divorce/remarriage are perfectly acceptable. On the other hand, I know of one church torn apart (meaning people were torn apart) because they took the position that there is no such thing as remarriage since "divorce can never happen as far as God is concern; therefore, all remarried people are living in adultery and must leave that relationship and go back to the original or be celibate.<BR/><BR/>I have prayerfully, carefully, fearfully remarried some people. I have also counseled some not to remarry but to remain celibate. I have thought through and hopefully prayed through "my position" on these matters so that I have some guidelines that I go by. However, I sure wish it were possible to know God's mind fully in unity with the whole body on them.<BR/><BR/>Joseph, I think the distinction between the church and the work is a helpful one and the way you have applied it in this discussions demonstrates its value.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-11047132844354289342008-05-14T16:08:00.000-07:002008-05-14T16:08:00.000-07:00very good, Brian -- I believe I agree with you. Bu...very good, Brian -- I believe I agree with you. But you didn't respond to my question about divorce and remarriage. Do you believe that people have the freedom from the biblical point of view to remarry after the failure of a marriage, irregardless of who was at fault? Once, twice, three times? <BR/><BR/>I often tell recent divorcees to take a "fast" from relationships and to embrace a year or so of not dating in order to get some perspective and healing. I would find it very hard to tell someone that they must embrace a life-time of celibacy. Gothard's extreme view of marriage covenant leads to this logical end.<BR/><BR/>Most of us will accept remarriages, even multiple remarriage despite the words of Jesus on the subject. We know that telling someone that they must obligatorily commit to life-time celibacy falls into the category of placing heavy burdens on people that they are unlikely to be able to bear, at least in our culture. <BR/><BR/>Those who do embrace celibacy, do it out of love for Christ, and perhaps a sense of calling or vocation. There is some evidence for a "gift of celibacy." Even then, many of them fail to keep their vows.<BR/><BR/>And then there is the teaching of chastity to our teens in churches ... a youth pastor in Miami recently came to me to ask for counsel. He wanted to encourage the teens in his church to give priority to chastity, but if they were weak, to use condoms. His pastor and the parents would not let him. Within six months, his top youth leader got the other female youth leader pregnant. He says this has happened more than once. <BR/><BR/>As we have already discussed in this forum, graduating High School seniors are leaving the church in droves ... and atheism is on a sharp increase among young people. Isn't it time to re-examine these issues from a faith perspective? and perhaps adopt a more pragmatic and realist perspective within broad biblical limits?<BR/>Is there ever a scenario where you would counsel a recently divorced person to embrace life time celibacy?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-83632192418668258672008-05-14T14:35:00.000-07:002008-05-14T14:35:00.000-07:00Basic questions: what is sex for/about, from God's...Basic questions: what is sex for/about, from God's perspective and purpose?<BR/><BR/>Paul says marriage mirrors the union of Christ and his church. When two men marry, does that relationship mirror wht Paul seems to be after?<BR/><BR/>Celibacy is certainly challenging! Does the often unremarked reality that tens of thousand of believers have lived faithful, fulfilled, happy, celibate lives mean anything to our conversation, or are they mainly irrelevant weirdos?<BR/><BR/>Are we confusing grace and mercy? I think we are all for mercy for all who struggle with sexual temptations of whatever stripe, and for all who sin in this regard (as in any others). Yes to mercy, yes to compassion, yes to patience! But isn't there something about the operation of grace in our lives that lifts us up to God, rather than telling us that it's OK to be where we are? God loves us where we are, as we are--but because he loves us, he won't leave us there! Grace and truth come through Jesus Christ (Jn 1:18)--don't we fail to love our neighbor, gay, straight, divorced, remarried, greedy, proud, etc. if we separate God's grace from God's truth?<BR/><BR/>And yes, being as discerning as we possibly can about where a person might be in this process is essential. I think the Good News is first and last GOOD...but there is some bad news to be dealt with somewhere between the good and the GOOD!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-85221960748232491942008-05-14T13:36:00.000-07:002008-05-14T13:36:00.000-07:00Good question Joseph. What if the traditional con...Good question Joseph. What if the traditional conservative translations and interpretations of the "homosexual" passages in the Bible are not accurate? <BR/><BR/>What if some of the more liberal/progressive interpretations that allow for committed sexual relationships between same-sex couples are actually permitted by the scriptures?<BR/><BR/>There are certainly those who purposely distort to further their agenda, but could conservatives not be guilty of the same?<BR/><BR/>Along with the distorters, there are those who are sincerely looking for truth; who are questioning the traditional translations and interpretations by going back to the original Hebrew and GK and re-looking at how they have historically been translated in the English versions and how they have traditionally been interpretated by modern conservatives. They are raising valid questions -- especially from the Rabbinical, and Talmudic interpretations and translations.<BR/><BR/>Interesting that you should mention divorce. I have recently been talking with a brother who was previously divorced who is a member of a church who is now questioning his present marriage of nearly 30 years because he was previously married.<BR/><BR/>He has been researching the remarriage issue in the same manner as I mentioned above, and has found some very interesting data supporting remarriage based on the Rabbinical understanding and the original intent and understanding of the biblical authors. If you get that one right, it is, of course,. the context that Jesus is coming from when he makes the statements in the N.T.<BR/><BR/>I find my self strongly supportive of the "reinterpretation" of the hard, legalistic conservative, traditional interpretations on the subject of remarriage.<BR/><BR/>Why would I not be willing to consider the same in relationship to homosexuality? Is it because my conservative background and teaching has made me so rigid and prejudiced as to not even consider other view-points -- to just dismiss them out-of-hand? Is it because I am afraid of the potential consequences and ramifications of opening my nice comfortable closed system of interpretation to the chaos of a new set of glasses?<BR/><BR/>Hmmm...John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-24977734386589828842008-05-14T13:07:00.000-07:002008-05-14T13:07:00.000-07:00I'm a heterosexual "head-light" guy myself ... you...I'm a heterosexual "head-light" guy myself ... you can imagine my need for God's grace on a university campus in Miami now that it is summer (wicked smile). My motto is <I>“admire but do not desire.” </I><BR/><BR/>John, you said: <I>"For me, I would be perfectly willing to receive a sincere believer into the body -- even if they were dealing with same-sex attraction, as long as they were committed to celibacy." </I> I think most of us would agree with you but...<BR/><BR/>Here is a possible incongruence in our views on this subject. If we advise Christians with a homosexual orientation to stay single and embrace celibacy (for a lifetime), why do we not give the same counsel to divorced heterosexual Christians? <BR/><BR/>I know the theological arguments pro and con for divorce and remarriage. One might construct a fairly narrow scenario in which one partner might have a biblically justified divorce, but most Christian divorces are simply train wreaks and there are no "innocent parties.” <BR/><BR/>I can tell why I don’t advise divorcee’s to embrace a life of celibacy: because I know it won’t work. If I don’t allow the person to remarry, they will fall into fornication or worse. “Better to marry than to burn” and “it is not good for a man to be alone” and all that jazz. <BR/><BR/>So – why would we tell Christian gays to embrace lifelong celibacy but not Christian heterosexual divorcees who have divorced simply because they are selfish and emotionally immature? Let me repeat – Jesus made it pretty clear that remarriage after divorce equals adultery with one caveat (fornication – pornea) that is actually a pretty narrow criteria. I would submit that it is due to expediency … if we refused to recognize second marriages except under extraordinary circumstances, we would lose too many people. Since most of us do not have gays in our congregations, it is easier to maintain a “purist” or rigid standard with them without it getting messy.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-6545314677928199542008-05-14T10:08:00.000-07:002008-05-14T10:08:00.000-07:00I agree Brian. I was raising questions, not givin...I agree Brian. I was raising questions, not giving answers. I also agree with Steve, that discipline needs to be given when there is public, unrepentant sin in an individual's or couple's life.<BR/><BR/>I based my response on your hypothetical scenario. Your young woman had not eliminated the possibility of a committed lesbian relationship at some point -- which in itself could be a disqualifier.<BR/><BR/>But you also stated in the post, that she was a believer, part of the hypothetical church, and was, at this point at least, attempting to live celibate and follow Jesus.<BR/><BR/>I was asking if that would be a healthier environment to raise a child than perhaps other environments to which he/she might otherwise be raised. <BR/><BR/>I agree with Steve and Joseph that it is very difficult to separate this discussion from the "nature of the Church" discussion.<BR/><BR/>I would submit that seeker sensitive public services are part of the work (evangelism), not the church. At least some of those churches understand that and provide believers meetings and small groups for their core membership. It would be interesting to know if they would distiguish between attendance and involvement for your young woman between those two levels of meetings. I'm sure it would vary from church to church.<BR/><BR/>For me, I would be perfectly willing to receive a sincere believer into the body -- even if they were dealing with same-sex attraction, as long as they were committed to celibacy. I don't believe that the orientation is sin. Sin comes through how the orientation is handled by the individual. <BR/><BR/>Most pastors and pastoral teams that I'm aware of extend much grace to heterosexual singles who struggle with temptation to sin sexually and even who lapse but are repentant. Why would we treat the homosexual person differently if they were involved in the same struggle from a homosexual rather than heterosexual experience?<BR/><BR/>I would want to agree with God's sanctification process in both people's lives, not put them out of the church for failure. I imagine that if sinlessness was a requirement for membership in the church, that we would all have been disfellowshipped by now. <BR/><BR/>I know that is certainly true for me -- even in regard to sexual sin. Although I have not had intercourse with anyone but my wife, I have certainly acted on my impulses to look at pornography, to sexualize and objectify other women, and to secretly look for overt opportunities to fulfill those desires and fantasies.<BR/><BR/>I am recovering from those things, and have sought counsel and accountability from several other brothers, and I have opened my problem to my wife. By God's grace I didn't self-destruct (although I easily could have), and I'm still on the journey with Jesus and my brothers and sisters.<BR/><BR/>My own experience has made me very reticent to be judgmental toward others who are struggling with gender identity and sexual issues. I have never struggled with same-sex attraction, nor with feeling "trapped" in the "wrong" body, but I have struggled with heterosexual temptation since puberty.<BR/><BR/>By God's grace I'm living in much more freedom and wholeness, but it has taken a long time, and it involved deep personal issues that needed the Lord's healing touch. I had always believed that it was simply a matter of self-control, just saying "No", and making the right choices. Consequently I vacillated between feeling incredibly guilty, and telling myself that it was no big deal, because this was "normal for a man". I have learned that compulsive, addictive behavior is much more complex than just saying "No". What works for some people does not work for others. Some of us are more deeply broken and need to be more deeply touched in terms of our sexuality.<BR/><BR/>I know how difficult it was for me to talk to other brothers about my struggles and failure. Since the church generally conveys the attitude that homosexual sexual sin is more serious and offensive than heterosexual sin, and many inuendos and even overt jokes and statements communicate that even the orientation is perverted and sinful, how much more difficult is it for the person sturggling with these issues to even remain in fellowship, much less share their struggles with others in the church.<BR/><BR/>Many times we drive them into the arms of the homosexual community by our negative, even bigoted attitudes, spoken both by individual members and publicly from the front. I know that this happens in our churches because I have done it myself -- until now.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.com