tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post7878108306911762195..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: An Implausible Scenario?Brian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28614317203940592952008-06-30T07:22:00.000-07:002008-06-30T07:22:00.000-07:00I noticed that Eugene Peterson gave it a positive ...I noticed that Eugene Peterson gave it a positive blurb, so that counts for something with me. I'll see if I can find it while we're up in NH this week... I'll try to keep in touch via the library computers in beautiful, bucolic Peterborough!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-24593407386857328142008-06-29T15:17:00.000-07:002008-06-29T15:17:00.000-07:00Rod Evansen told me that it was a powerful story a...Rod Evansen told me that it was a powerful story about forgiveness and healing ... it is about a father who's 11 or 12-year-old daughter diaappeared and they believe that she was killed. After some period of time, (several months or years I think) he gets a letter inviting him to the shack where the girl had disappeared ... persumably from the abuductor ... and he goes there with the intention killing the abductor ... and something powerful and divine happens ... thats about all I know. Dennis Coll read it and liked it.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-3148076739416808852008-06-29T12:22:00.000-07:002008-06-29T12:22:00.000-07:00Hadn't heard of "The Shack." The reviews on Amazon...Hadn't heard of "The Shack." The reviews on Amazon are interesting -- including the very negative. Sounds like it shakes people one way or the other.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-90430307520811743252008-06-29T05:10:00.000-07:002008-06-29T05:10:00.000-07:00yeah ... it is kind of a cult "hit" ... a friend i...yeah ... it is kind of a cult "hit" ... a friend is going to give me a copy and wants me to read it.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-77589341909587729692008-06-29T03:21:00.000-07:002008-06-29T03:21:00.000-07:00Oops, Randy, I forgot to give you my cell: 859-79...Oops, Randy, I forgot to give you my cell: 859-797-5985<BR/><BR/>Hey, while we're talking about books, has anyone heard of a novel called "The Shack"? I keep having people ask me if I've read it. If you know about it or have read it, let us know what you think.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-40002208513354253152008-06-29T03:19:00.000-07:002008-06-29T03:19:00.000-07:00Randy,I'm glad I checked the blog before we leave....Randy,I'm glad I checked the blog before we leave. I'm not sure exactly when we're unloading...either Sunday evening or Monday morning, depending when the other gal gets her stuff moved out of the apt.<BR/><BR/>Here's my cell phone number. If someone wants to give me a call and leave their contact info, I could get in touch when/if we need some help.<BR/><BR/>Send me your contact info and I'll pass it on to my friends. They think they have found a church already -- Capitol Hill something, but it would be great if they could meet you while they're in DC for the next couple years.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-65779870053067133852008-06-28T19:16:00.000-07:002008-06-28T19:16:00.000-07:00Hey John, Johns Hokins is in Baltimore, thirty min...Hey John, Johns Hokins is in Baltimore, thirty minutes from where we live. Can we help you? Some of our youth are doing an outeach in the city with YWAM this week!Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-88002788447002422322008-06-28T15:20:00.000-07:002008-06-28T15:20:00.000-07:00I'll order McLaren's book and probably the others ...I'll order McLaren's book and probably the others on inclusivism, since I've been pondering some of the same scriptures that Joseph has.<BR/><BR/>I will probably be quiet for the next few days. I'm helping friends of ours move to Wash. D.C. He's starting a degree in International Relations at John's Hopkins.<BR/><BR/>I'll plug back in when I get back Tues. evening.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67618912997590570442008-06-28T09:00:00.000-07:002008-06-28T09:00:00.000-07:00sounds good to me, I am already about 80 pages int...sounds good to me, I am already about 80 pages into it ... easy reading, but some provocative thoughts. <BR/><BR/>I think we need to wrestle with the thinking coming from the emerging church ... it is seriously rocking the boat of contemporary American evangelicalism .... <BR/><BR/>jhJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-29439329946322937262008-06-28T08:27:00.000-07:002008-06-28T08:27:00.000-07:00Here's my recommendation, subject to your approval...Here's my recommendation, subject to your approval: let's give McLaren's "Everything Must Change" a try. I think McLaren may be a bit more accessible than some of the other suggestions, and that might allow some lurkers to join in. You needn't read the book to participate, but you should at least check out some reviews of it, so that we don't run down too many rabbit trails.<BR/><BR/>My proposed start date would be July 10, to give everyone interested time to obtain the book and read the first couple of chapters.<BR/><BR/>How's this sound?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-8746686627547717722008-06-27T14:30:00.000-07:002008-06-27T14:30:00.000-07:00Hey, I have a book idea: There are actually severa...Hey, I have a book idea: There are actually several books in a collection from which we could choose one and discuss it. The book is called the Bible! I would suggest Romans, Ephesians, or the Gospel of John. Although, there is a lot in a little book called Jude. "Hey Jude!" <BR/><BR/>I am not trying to be cute or funny. I actually believe that we could have a very fruitful discussion, covering a chapter a week or possibly with a longer book, two per week. Just an idea from one of your many lurkers.<BR/><BR/>Like Steve, I have a stack sitting on my desk and am currently reading three books too! (By the way anyone read any of the following tombs: The Crucifixion of Ministry, Somebody Cares, Dying Well, Seeker Small Groups, or The Separation of Church and Faith?)Randy R.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12650176883278364001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-56632974685854390422008-06-27T10:12:00.000-07:002008-06-27T10:12:00.000-07:00there is no reason among all of us why we couldn't...there is no reason among all of us why we couldn't read through more than one book at the same time. A number of people have strongly urged me to read Wright's book.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-30122084586546806272008-06-27T09:55:00.000-07:002008-06-27T09:55:00.000-07:00Yes. I'm reading (between other things) Wright's b...Yes. I'm reading (between other things) Wright's book. I've been asked to report on it for the KMI brothers.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for the heads up about the summaries.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-19204244635287449842008-06-27T06:18:00.000-07:002008-06-27T06:18:00.000-07:00I agree with John about the top three priorities ....I agree with John about the top three priorities ... John you can get Tiessen and McDermott's book for five bucks apiece on amazon.<BR/><BR/>Steve, did you tell me that you have the new book by N.T. Wright already? Regarding the Tiessen and McDermott books, and even the McLaren book, I think you can find rather thorough summaries of the contents on McKnight's blog if you want to just read the summaries and track along with us ... I think I even have some of the summaries downloaded on my laptop I could send you.<BR/><BR/>Brian, what sayest thou?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-70187318866038013582008-06-27T05:59:00.000-07:002008-06-27T05:59:00.000-07:00Hey guys, to be completely honest I will not likel...Hey guys, to be completely honest I will not likely take on a new reading assignment this summer. I am backed up on books to be read and I "am reading" at least three now. My current projects list is my priority at this time.<BR/><BR/>Please don't hear this as read my suggestion or else. I will be interested in the discussion of whatever you decide to read. I'm only trying to communicate openly about present commitments.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-27817597591910223482008-06-27T05:50:00.000-07:002008-06-27T05:50:00.000-07:00My vote: Tiessen and McDermott first. Second "Ev...My vote: Tiessen and McDermott first. Second "Everything Must Change.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-87854869347185219552008-06-26T20:30:00.000-07:002008-06-26T20:30:00.000-07:00I’m reading the book on Christian Realism by Stack...I’m reading the book on Christian Realism by Stackhouse, that I have already mentioned. I’m also reading at the same time <I>“Everything Must Change”</I> by Brian McLaren. Despite the title, which some of you might be put off by, the book is good – <I>Everything must change,</I> is a paraphrase of “Repent, for the kingdom of God” is at hand, and the central theme is the kingdom of God. <BR/><BR/>Next up are either the book on the Resurrection by N.T. Wright (can’t remember the name right now) or <I>“Life Fire in the Bones”</I> by Walter Brueggemann. I would be fine with discussing any of these with you guys. <BR/><BR/>Also, if others besides John wants to pursue the ‘inclusivist’ discussion, there are two books we could look at: <BR/><BR/>Terrance Tiessen, <I>Who Can Be Saved? Reassessing Salvation in Christ and World Religions</I> and Gerald McDermott, <I>God’s Rivals.</I><BR/><BR/>I didn’t feel comfortable getting backed into a corner defending a position earlier … especially one that I have not studied much.I have only had some personal reflections based on passage of scripture. Brian and I are probably going to read the book by Tiessen and discuss it. I ordered both books by Tiessen and McDermott on Amazon for five bucks each.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-44199223096620701642008-06-26T17:32:00.000-07:002008-06-26T17:32:00.000-07:00Please cast your votes for a book that you will be...Please cast your votes for a book that you will be willing to (a) purchase or obtain, (b) read, and (c) comment thoughtfully upon! There have been several excellent choices suggested--any others?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-86797464499821086362008-06-25T19:53:00.000-07:002008-06-25T19:53:00.000-07:00Hey,I just went from here to Scot McKnight's Jesus...Hey,I just went from here to Scot McKnight's Jesus Creed blog and he mentions the "I Once Was Lost Book", along with the book that the "Four Circles" CT article is taken from. It is called "True Story, A Christianity Worth Believing In", by James Choung.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-52617634439382497192008-06-25T19:34:00.000-07:002008-06-25T19:34:00.000-07:00Joseph and Steve, ditto your comments about our ti...Joseph and Steve, ditto your comments about our time together. It was good to get to talk face to face. Thanks, Joseph, for initiating.<BR/><BR/>Is anyone inclined to grab Joseph's comment on "inculsivism"? I would like to have a discussion along those lines at some point because I've been doing a lot of thinking about the topic myself.<BR/><BR/>Regarding the original topic of this thread, the current issue of Christianity Today (July 2008) addresses the whole idea of apologetics in our current social and intellectual climate. The two lead articles are titled, "God is Not Dead Yet" and "A New Day for Apologetics".<BR/><BR/>There is also an excellent article on evangelism titled "From Four Laws to Four Circles". It deals with communicating a robust Gospel that has a Kingdom focus and deals with the big picture of bringing healing and restoration to a broken world -- while not dismissing the need for personally embracing the cross.<BR/><BR/>Speaking of evangelism, here's a good book that we could read together. It's by two Inter-Varsity campus ministers and is titled "I Once Was Lost, What Postmodern Skeptics Taught Us About Their Path to Jesus". They have drawn from a composite of over 2000 students they have personally dealt with between the two of them over the last 10 years.<BR/><BR/>They also note the changes that they have observed in the climate and attitudes of college students during the last decade. <BR/><BR/>They feel that they have discovered a consistent pattern, not a program or a system, but a relatively predictable pattern that many if not most of those 2000 students fit as they move from being distrustful of Christians to becoming curious, to becoming seekers, to entering the Kingdom and becoming Christ followers. Obviously some of the 2000 did not become followers of Jesus, but most of them followed a similar path to others until they dropped out.<BR/><BR/>I would like to read it again, and would enjoy interacting around it with you brothers if it sounds like something you would want to do. I would be particularly interested in what some of the younger guys (John, you there?) would say about it. And I would like to hear Joseph's responses in terms of his experience at FIU and at Stick and Stein's.<BR/> <BR/>McLaren's book sounds good to.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-11517186305181798522008-06-25T19:03:00.000-07:002008-06-25T19:03:00.000-07:00John G. Stackhouse, Jr.'s "Making the Best of It: ...John G. Stackhouse, Jr.'s <I>"Making the Best of It: Following Christ in the Real World"</I> is excellent ... I am getting a lot out of it although it probably does not qualify as "something lighter."<BR/><BR/>The central theme of McLaren's book is the kingdom of God turning everything on its head, in terms of values. I just read a passage that I would love to share in here... but maybe tomorrow after others have commented. <BR/><BR/>I was down at the bar tonight, smoking cigars and hanging out with the gang ... it was nice to just 'waste time together.' There were several people there who are part of the social network but do not yet come on Tuesday nights...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-38663878789042220452008-06-25T08:09:00.000-07:002008-06-25T08:09:00.000-07:00Good thoughts, all-- I, too, am part way through W...Good thoughts, all-- I, too, am part way through Wright's "Surprised by Hope"... I think J's idea of a common book is a good one--in addition to his suggestions (McLaren) and Steve H's (NT Wright), any other recommendations for a group "book review"? I also liked Steve H's, "How about something lighter for a change" idea--any other thoughts there?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-49901955913727211822008-06-25T05:56:00.000-07:002008-06-25T05:56:00.000-07:00It was indeed good to hang with you even for a lit...It was indeed good to hang with you even for a little while, Joseph.<BR/><BR/>I am reading (among other things) N.T. Wright's "Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church." I haven't finished it but I'm pretty sure that I will be challenged by (and probably disagree with details of) the section on the church's mission. His material on the Christian's hope regarding heaven and the resurrection provides the scholarly support and more for the views that I have been moving toward in the last 30 years.<BR/><BR/>A possible topic: What is our hope? What was the hope of Jesus' early followers -- what kept them motivated in the face of great opposition?<BR/><BR/>If that is not a good topic, perhaps we could get off the "heavy theology" for a bit and discuss something for fun -- perhaps Bob Dylan's worldview or some such topic.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-35114352737253343852008-06-25T05:25:00.000-07:002008-06-25T05:25:00.000-07:00maybe not ... I left the prescription meds in my h...maybe not ... I left the prescription meds in my hotel room in Atlanta ... <BR/><BR/>Anyway...thanks to Brian, I have been thinking alot about this but I don't feel ready to try to put my thoughts out there. <BR/><BR/>by-the-way, I had a delightful time at Cracker Barrel with John M and Steve H. on my way through Lexington on Monday... thanks guys!<BR/><BR/>Perhaps Steve or John can suggest a new topic for discussion. Have any of you read McClaren's book <I>"Everything Must Change"?</I> I got it on a gift card in Ohio and have read the first 80 pages ... very easy reading, but provocative content. I would say that it is centered around the concept of the kingdom of God, as is his other book, <I> The Secret Message of Jesus</I>, with applications for social issues and the environment. <BR/><BR/>Perhaps at some point, we could all agree to pick a controversial book like that and read through it together and discuss it. This is a book that I would not hesitate to give to some of my liberal friends who are semi-open to the gospel but turned off by the religious right.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-15643085248562427432008-06-22T16:18:00.000-07:002008-06-22T16:18:00.000-07:00I guessed it was you, although it would also be gr...I guessed it was you, although it would also be great to hear from Thom B. I'm in Ohio, getting ready to drive home tomorrow in my son's car.<BR/><BR/>To summarize my 'inclusivist' views on this subject, I personally believe that there are many, many ways to God ... and that all of them, at one point or another, lead through Jesus, Isa (Arabic), Yeshua, Joshua, Jesu (Creole) the son of man, the living water, the living bread, the good shepherd, the messiah, Immanuel, God with us... you get the point. <BR/><BR/>It is in the 'name' of Jesus that we are saved ... but as we learned many years ago, it is not so much the linguistic pronunciation of the name as in "Je-sus" which varies in many different languages, but it is in the character, the spirit, and in the agreement with the nature of the one in whose name we worship.<BR/><BR/>To do something in the 'name' of Jesus, means to do it in accordance with his character, in the same spirit as himself. When someone does something in the ‘name’ of Jesus, they are doing it in the same spirit as he would, even if they do not know cognitively that they are doing it for the Jewish messiah, the founder of Christianity. Gandhi came to a love for and appreciation of Jesus through Tolstoy, but he chose not to ‘become a Christian’ because of his experience with Christians. So, yes, Brian, I think as we move toward a globalized view of pluralistic world cultures (and a deepening appreciation that he is Lord of all the earth, as well as head of the church), there is a growing appreciation for the distinction between the Lord of History, the Eternal Logos and the Christian religion, perhaps just as there was between the Messiah and Judaism as a religion of Moses. <BR/><BR/>In Matthew 7, Jesus said that many on that day would say to him, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not cast out demons in your name?” and he would say “depart from me, I never knew you.”<BR/><BR/>Is it not just possible that there will also be those in that day that will NOT say “Lord, Lord” but he will say “come closer, I think I know you… what you did in the name of Truth, and in the name of selfless Love, you did as unto me, you did it in my name for you did it in accordance with my spirit and my character…come to me and let me reveal myself more fully to you!”<BR/><BR/>I realize that this might be considered a bit speculative, but so is most of the thinking of the exclusivist view, in my humble opinion. <BR/><BR/>There are many ways to God, and they all lead through his son … but he is not a “tame lion.” He has other sheep in other folds by other names. <BR/><BR/>Ok, I am rested up and I have a prescription for anti-depressants… have at me. ;-)Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.com