tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post7984578322061875707..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: thinkling and camping in the Florida KeysBrian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger58125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-59157778939576033782009-01-31T12:06:00.000-08:002009-01-31T12:06:00.000-08:00Dr. J, I would have loved to be part of your discu...Dr. J, I would have loved to be part of your discussion, or just to have listend in. Ditto Joseph's questions.<BR/><BR/>Frank, cudos for being here on the blog. Pleas continue to get us "off track" with provocative questions and comments. That's what makes this blog interesting...we chase lots of rabbits.<BR/><BR/>Btw, Frank, you are the pastor that modeled leadership, care and mentoring without <BR/>heavy-handedness. When I was a young type "A" with plenty of piss and vinegar in my veins, I used to wish you were more directive.<BR/><BR/>Now I understand your wisdom better. And when I moved on to other overseers who had no qualms about being directive and sometimes heavy-handed and self-serving, I realized just how wise your model was -- and I found myself gravitating toward your style -- and wishing you could model for some of the other type A, piss and vinegar leaders whom I found myself walking with.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-90104071974115278182009-01-31T05:28:00.000-08:002009-01-31T05:28:00.000-08:00I nominate Frank as our offical thinkling 'elder' ...I nominate Frank as our offical thinkling 'elder' as an 80-year-old who demonstrates that it IS Possible to learn new technology. What do all the 70-somethings who say that they cannot find their way into a blog have to say to that?<BR/><BR/>I'll be back later to comment on Frank's thoughts about 'pastor/teacher' and Dr. J's comments on keeping the center centered. <BR/><BR/>By-the-way, Dr. J: can you give us an idea of who (and how many) participated in your thinklings west? What was the consensus about FandFF?<BR/>jhJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-59696600275852317322009-01-30T20:36:00.000-08:002009-01-30T20:36:00.000-08:00sorry- That was me, John Norton, posting as SoCal ...sorry- That was me, John Norton, posting as SoCal Connected.John Nortonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08021754919736466028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-16720624045317977642009-01-30T20:34:00.000-08:002009-01-30T20:34:00.000-08:00This was great. I really appreciate all of your t...This was great. I really appreciate all of your thoughtful comments.<BR/><BR/>I hosted the first ever "Thinklings West" meeting last night at my house. El Rey de Mundo cigars were smoked, Jameson was sipped, and F&FF was discussed. <BR/><BR/>-Brian's comment about boundaries "keeping the center centered" makes me uncomfortable (in a good way). This is the dangerous, yet (I think) necessary role of church government. If done thoughtfully, it can keep the center centered. If done with a heavy hand, we run for the hills, and relationships are broken.<BR/><BR/>-Dr. J was a basketball hero of mine (76ers). I'd be honored.SoCalConnectedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01921874042761445302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63922056644167177442009-01-30T19:23:00.000-08:002009-01-30T19:23:00.000-08:00Greetings to all. I've read it all. I wouldn't s...Greetings to all.<BR/> I've read it all. I wouldn't say it brought me up to speed with you 'youths', but I have an idea or two to drop in the pot.<BR/> 1. Isn't it interesting that the Muslim world is reaching out in the US to the prison population? Is anyone exploring this fertile field? Maybe it is not a good source of 'tithes and offerings'. (Please delete any hint of cynicism.) It's really not there.<BR/> 2. I've recently inherited about 2,000 cassette tapes of a very prolific Bible teacher with an amazing command of Greek and Hebrew. He states there is only one office in the 'true church'.<BR/>That of Pastor/Teacher. He starts every teaching with a quiet time, when the hearers exercise their personal 'priesthood' by searching their hearts and using 1 Jn.1:9 to get clear, so the Holy Spirit can teach them, while he shares the lesson.<BR/> These two illustrations may be a bit 'off the track', but that's my specialty. Later....FrankLYourshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00974427818347368554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-12476937330326863912009-01-30T14:37:00.000-08:002009-01-30T14:37:00.000-08:00Thanks guys.Thanks guys.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-87391447051580909192009-01-30T07:45:00.000-08:002009-01-30T07:45:00.000-08:00No quarrels from me on these scores. Anyone else?...No quarrels from me on these scores. Anyone else?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84872940397730581012009-01-30T06:00:00.000-08:002009-01-30T06:00:00.000-08:00you don't sound harsh at all, John, and I totally ...you don't sound harsh at all, John, and I totally agree with your points. I think subtle manipulation for personal advantage is a real danger in leadership ...and it is both rampant and wrong. <BR/><BR/>Jesus did not do that ... he spoke 'hard sayings' and then he looked at his disciples and asked, 'are you leaving too?"<BR/><BR/>we can speak truth, but we must leave the choice with them and not try to 'manage' their response.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-61214960608327949302009-01-29T07:35:00.000-08:002009-01-29T07:35:00.000-08:00What is the difference between "external pressure"...What is the difference between "external pressure" and "encouragement"? Is exhortation "external pressure" or simply encouraging someone to do the right thing while allowing them to make the choice for themselves? <BR/><BR/>I'm still of the mind that we need to make our agenda clear and up front; and that manipulative pressure is always negative.<BR/><BR/>For me this still applies even in "committed" relationships where someone has "submited" themselves to another's direction. This obviously opens things up for more directive leadership and accountability, but I think that is where it should end. Give direction, provide acoountability; but don't try to manipulate and control or have a hidden agenda that "uses" the person for the leader's purposes.<BR/><BR/>We've got to find a healthy way to do this. Otherwise we end up with "former" disciples who are trying to "recover". If we can help them get under Jesus' authority from the beginning, rather than ours, they won't need to be recovering disciples, only growing disciples.<BR/><BR/>Disclaimer: When I'm trying to make a point, in print, I sometimes come across as harsh. I hope this isn't one of those times. If so, it's not intended nor is it directed at anyone personally. I also, own the fact that I was once a recovering disciple and discipler, which could skew my view. On the other hand the above has been my experience both on the receiving and giving ends. <BR/><BR/>Although this is not the topic, I also received a lot of good stuff from the system I submited to. In hindsight, the good stuff could have probably been delivered through the pipleline I describe above; never the less, I am a product of my history, both for good and ill.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-47245915465173705682009-01-28T20:53:00.000-08:002009-01-28T20:53:00.000-08:00I'm apologize for my ambiguity. John M. said, " th...I'm apologize for my ambiguity. John M. said, <B>" the other one will bear bad fruit every time (external pressure and manipulation and unspoken agendas)."</B><BR/><BR/>This is the external obligation I am referring to. Obligation, pressure and agendas are tools. When used by the right people correctly, they are good. In other situations, bad fruit is indeed produced and that is what's stuck in my craw (not my heart, just my craw).Patrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-32467879772429891112009-01-28T15:25:00.000-08:002009-01-28T15:25:00.000-08:00I have been a "leader" in the Covenant movement an...I have been a "leader" in the Covenant movement and an elder/pastor in the ecclesiastical "governement" of a local church. It seems to me that it is never wise to attempt to impose obedience on people. Even with those who have voluntarily "submitted" themselves to leadership, it always seems to backfire when leaders try to impose their will, without the voluntary participation of the people who are being led. I think this is true both individually and corporately.<BR/><BR/>Leaders should give clear leadership and direction, even clearly state what they think should be done, but the minute they attempt to impose these things on others things get messy and many times ugly.<BR/><BR/>God clearly told Adam and Eve what his will was in the Garden. And he gave them a clear command. But he did not impose His will on them. He allowed them to choose, even though, I'm sure it was tempting to protect them from the consequences of their sin.<BR/><BR/>God has given me strong encouragement at times. I have jokely said that at times I feel a firm hand in my back pushing me out of the nest. But I can always bail. He never thwarts my will or ability to say yes or no, to hold in to obedience or to walk away.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84228015125757642992009-01-28T12:40:00.000-08:002009-01-28T12:40:00.000-08:00hmmm.... I agree with the "tricky" part. I'll have...hmmm.... <BR/><BR/>I agree with the "tricky" part. I'll have to think about the rest. It does not feel to me like God imposes things on me ... there is always a choice -- even if one alternative is not pleasant. Regarding 'obeying' leaders ... I can think of about 3 places (maybe 4) where scripture says that ... and in our movement we have given great atention to those 3 or 4 verses, and probably rightly so, over the last 30 years. But, (and there is always a 'but') there is also the scripture, I think in 1John, that basically says <I>'you have no need for anyone to teach you because you have an anointing from the Holy One who teaches you all things'</I> and another one where Jesus says to call <I>"no man father or teacher, for you have one father in heaven"</I> ... and other such scriptures. Line up those 3 or 4 scriptures on obedience to leaders next to the 8 scriptures in the 4 gospels that warn leaders to be 'servants' of all and the 'least' of all and throw in a couple of verses on humility and responsability (such as <I>work out your own salvation...</I> and the one on <I>"do not let many of you become teachers"</I> and then we can light up our cigars, pour a single malt, have a good discussion on the subject and "do some theology" on leadership and authority.<BR/><BR/>By-the-way, 3 or 4 more comments and we will break the 50 commment mark for the first time in several months ...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-22633913468254206932009-01-27T16:25:00.000-08:002009-01-27T16:25:00.000-08:00I think the reason we keep fighting about, er, dis...I think the reason we keep fighting about, er, discussing, this is because it can be very tricky to make the kinds of discernments and distinctions John M mentioned. Doesn't God's will often feel like an imposition? Has it ever been of help to you to have been "forced" to go against what you wanted? Does the Scripture enjoin us to, among many other things, "obey" our "leaders," which requires that (a) we have "leaders", (b) we know who they are, and (c) that we, uh, like, obey them?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-78345903263017978912009-01-27T10:57:00.000-08:002009-01-27T10:57:00.000-08:00On obligations, pressure and agendas.I think Patri...On obligations, pressure and agendas.<BR/><BR/>I think Patrick nailed it when he said "no external obligation". When we take up our cross and obediently follow Jesus out of an inner heart conviction it is one thing. We have yielded to the inner convicion (pressure?) of the Holy Spirit and we willingly (if not someties reluctantly) choose God's agenda as our own. <BR/><BR/>It is totally different having people around us who have their own agenda (or what they preceive as God's agenda) who are trying to put obligation and pressure on us to do what they think we should be doing.<BR/><BR/>I think sincere Christians do this to each other and to pre-believers all the time. Accountablity is given not taken.<BR/><BR/>My impression is that the later is what Patrick is referring to and the former is the point Brian is making. One is a good thing (inner conviction and obedience); the other one will bear bad fruit every time (external pressure and manipulation and unspoken agendas).<BR/><BR/>Am I correct?John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-54895602061293627782009-01-27T09:57:00.000-08:002009-01-27T09:57:00.000-08:00boundaries are cool until they become barriers ......boundaries are cool until they become barriers ... then they are a problem. Discerning the difference is the challenge.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-54889191734815238092009-01-27T09:49:00.000-08:002009-01-27T09:49:00.000-08:00Steve, we're glad that you are experiencing the go...Steve, we're glad that you are experiencing the goodness of God in the land of the living! Welcome home!<BR/><BR/>Joseph, the both/and approach seems good the way you outlined it. As I said, there's not a lot here that I want to fight about. I don't view boundaries of various kinds as wholly negative; after all, God does establish all kinds of boundaries, in both Creation and redemption. Don't boundaries help keep the center centered?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-12644773702678939162009-01-27T06:45:00.000-08:002009-01-27T06:45:00.000-08:00It's wonderful to read the reports and follow-up f...It's wonderful to read the reports and follow-up from the campout. Wish I had more energy and ability to get into the discussion.<BR/><BR/>Since I working from my old laptop I can't get to my current email address list. Those who don't really know me can ignore the following brief update. I just had to share a note of praise that I sent out to our church:<BR/><BR/>Thanks so much for the prayers that have been offered and for the expressions of love and concern that have been made toward Patricia and me since last Thursday when I was found to have a very large blood clot in the femoral artery and veins of my right leg.<BR/><BR/>Once again God clearly kept me alive. The Greenfield filter inserted in me back in 2004 in order to protect my heart, lungs, and brain from clots has apparently worked well this time too. However, my blood pressure was dropping to dangerous levels this time because I was severely dehydrated. Even though I had been drinking huge amounts of liquid it was just flowing through because I, for some unknown reason, was sodium deficient.<BR/><BR/>Seeing the doctor's deep concern about the low pressure during an episode in which I only started into the process of passing out (or blacking out) on Thursday afternoon, raises the question as to how low it really was during the fuller episodes at home.<BR/><BR/>The recovery process will take some time to be complete -- aside from an intervention of God which I would welcome. At this point I have faith and trust. And I am also low in stamina and in energy. It is at least a temporary setback to my efforts to regain strength and muscle use after the hip replacement.<BR/><BR/>But I am here and God is good and my wife is ever helping me! I am here to love and serve my family and God's people. Thank God, I am here. I have not yet completed his purpose for me in this life.<BR/><BR/>Here's a passage that was quickened to me this morning. It is taken from Psalm 27:6-9 in a translation of the Greek Septuagint (which is often quoted in the New Testament.) It would be Psalm 28:6-9 in other translations taken from the Hebrew text. <BR/><BR/>"Blessed is the Lord, because He heard the voice of my supplication.<BR/>The Lord is my helper and my champion.<BR/>In Him my heart hoped, and I was helped, and my flesh revived;<BR/>And I will give thanks to Him willingly.<BR/>The Lord is the strength of His people,<BR/>And the protector of the salvation of His anointed.<BR/>Save Your people and bless Your inheritance;<BR/>And shepherd them, and raise them up forever."steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-19493588653101131582009-01-27T05:48:00.000-08:002009-01-27T05:48:00.000-08:00Brian,I have edged back from the precipice of 'mea...Brian,I have edged back from the precipice of 'meaninglessness' this morning. Who knows by 11 pm tonight where I will be?<BR/><BR/>What about the idea of pursuing a 'friends of friends' approach in the world, and combining it with your congregation as the discipleship core? Could you do both? centered set versus bounded set ... have Christ at the center, with your commmited congregation around the core, but keep the network 'open' and centered rather than closed and bounded ... de-emphasize 'maintenaince' type activities and refocus the congregation on living redemptively as <I>"lights in the world"</I> and to priortize their friendships with unchurched, unbelieving people just behind their commitment to follow Christ and care for their families?<BR/><BR/>Perhaps a judicious mixing and matching is warrented here ...<BR/><BR/>My case is a little different, since we do not have a bounded congregation or weekly meetings to worry about. My problem will be the one you pointed out ... how do I persuade or motivate my 60-plus secular friends (or at least some of them) to enter into a process of discipleship under Christ? So far I have only been partially successful with a half a dozen of them.<BR/><BR/>To successfully do this with an existing congregation would not be easy ... you would have to lead most of your people through a significant change of world view and perspective ... things such as 'insider vs. outsider' thinking, concepts of salvation as a process rather than a one-time event, perhaps even a different view of soteriology ... I tried to do something along these lines with CARIS, the bi-lingual congregation I started 18 years ago in Miami, but had to give it up. I was not up to the task of leading them through that much change.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-59307744550425694872009-01-27T05:08:00.000-08:002009-01-27T05:08:00.000-08:00Patrick, good to hear from you! Thanks for making...Patrick, good to hear from you! Thanks for making the article on F&FofF available to us--I read a bit of it to my men's group on Saturdat, and it generated a good discussion.<BR/><BR/>I think your comment right above this one captures the strength, and the weakness, of this approach. "No external obligation, no pressure, no theory with an agenda." As an initial entryway into a life of discipleship, the F&FofF model has a great deal to offer and to teach. However, doesn't a life of discipleship entail obligation ("take up your cross daily and follow me"), pressure ("forgetting what lies behind and straining forward towards the prize"), and agenda ("seek ye first the kingdom")? "You are my friends if you do what I command."<BR/><BR/>I felt like the author of the article had "discovered" something similar to what I "discovered" years ago: what I discovered is that it is relatively easy to have wonderful worship meetings, something parallel to the author's significant experiences at the gathering in Ireland, etc.--short-term experiences that are truly wonderful, but which don't (may not) have true staying power. I'm asking if the friendship model offers sufficient resources for "the long obedience."Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-43122907193588371962009-01-27T05:00:00.000-08:002009-01-27T05:00:00.000-08:00if we believe that Ecclesiates represents the 'ins...if we believe that Ecclesiates represents the 'inspired' word of God, then there must be a reason that the Holy Spirit wanted it included in the scriptures. Solomon pretty clearly held the Jewish world view of his time ... which treated the afterlife as no more than the grave and was very grounded in present concrete reality.<BR/><BR/>If nothing else, Ecc respresents a great antibody to idealism ... we can call it "biblical realism."Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-24672330828337905582009-01-26T21:19:00.000-08:002009-01-26T21:19:00.000-08:00wow, Smokin Joe...we might need to cut you off fro...wow, Smokin Joe...we might need to cut you off from Ecclesiastes for a moment! haha! you are sometime cynical, but that was truly a work of art! Edgar Allen Poe style!<BR/><BR/>One of the main reasons I like the F's and F's of F's is that there is no external obligation or pressure on the relationship; no theory with an agenda; it just is what it is: friendships based on friendships with GodPatrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-27101981467306414692009-01-26T21:11:00.000-08:002009-01-26T21:11:00.000-08:00I guess Dr. Norton sounds little formal -- perhaps...I guess Dr. Norton sounds little formal -- perhaps we can dub him "Dr. J" ... (wasn't there a basketball player by that name?).<BR/><BR/>Brian, sorry for ignoring you... too bad you don't want to fight over this -- we could have probably kept the conversation going 10 or 12 more posts.<BR/><BR/>Hi John and Patrick!<BR/><BR/>Deb and I are reading through Ecclesiastes right now -- it is rather depressing but oh so true. Meaningless, meaningless ... there is nothing new under the sun, it has all been done before. The reading or writing of many books is ... wearisome (he must have been a grad student at some point).<BR/><BR/>The whole <I>'friends of friends'</I> thing is fascinating ... but pretty much just another theory. I have been through dozens of them in my life ... and this one will probably bite the dust as well. Apart from the power of God, nothing really ever works. <BR/><BR/>Soloman says that the point of life is to enjoy your work (even though it is meaningless -- at least try to have some fun), eat good and drink good and love your wife. It does not get much better than that. <BR/><BR/>I guess the world and the next generation is God's problem and there is precious little we can do about it other than daily obedience... I'm ready to talk about something else whenever you guys are.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-72704438428079813992009-01-26T20:04:00.000-08:002009-01-26T20:04:00.000-08:00Hola! I'm here, reading and living alongside you g...Hola! I'm here, reading and living alongside you guysPatrick K Curriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09120213529282884909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-28265154521912208692009-01-26T16:17:00.000-08:002009-01-26T16:17:00.000-08:00Brian, isn't that what leadership is for...to be i...Brian, isn't that what leadership is for...to be ignored.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-71372055317383895812009-01-26T14:51:00.000-08:002009-01-26T14:51:00.000-08:00Well, Joseph and John M aren't going to get any fi...Well, Joseph and John M aren't going to get any fights from me. Dr, Norton, do you wish to reply? Are we ready for something new, and, if so, any suggestions as to what it might be?<BR/><BR/>NB: the last time I said something along these lines, the blog kept pursuing what it was already working on, so feel free to ignore me yet again!Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.com