tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post8031138208040039346..comments2023-11-03T02:27:58.016-07:00Comments on Covenant Thinklings: Do not judge... its a boomerang!Brian Emmethttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-48316443892427156982008-06-09T12:04:00.000-07:002008-06-09T12:04:00.000-07:00New post up...but that does not require us to stop...New post up...but that does not require us to stop this conversation.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-55431981357968020582008-06-07T18:12:00.000-07:002008-06-07T18:12:00.000-07:00John,Do you have any idea of much fun we could hav...John,<BR/>Do you have any idea of much fun we could have with the Bible, Belt, and Buckle of your post? I will resist since you are visiting family, and need to demonstrate appropriate respect. <BR/>I am, however, laughing to myself even as I am resisting the temptation. We are all fodder for humour and comic relief. why do you think late night comedies are so popular There is nothing that is off limits to their satirical presentations. If their is no humour in our daily mundaness then, oh my goodness, we would be sick beyond remedy.<BR/>Have a wonderful vacation. and have some fun!!!!<BR/>LaurelLaurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-3081242916443532992008-06-07T17:55:00.000-07:002008-06-07T17:55:00.000-07:00Brian, You very sweet young man! I have been righ...Brian, <BR/>You very sweet young man! I have been right here just doing what most women do; loving my husband, my children and grandchildren, going to work every day, integrating into my community, looking for opportunities to enlarge that circle of love and looking for ways to contribute to others out of reach, like this blog. <BR/>Sometimes, I like to interpret myself in mathematical terms, mostly because math has been such a challenge for me; just like my life!!!! If you consider a number that has a zero in it, say 1034. The zero is a "place holder," I like to pretend I am a zero,it has value but no volume, its value changes from time to time. We all are a zero sometimes and we are all a 9 or 10 at times; maybe next year I will be the "9" in 1934. I am perfectly content with this. I am speaking metaphorically of course. It keeps me humble and disciplines my ego appropriately.<BR/>I am here and will not go away as long as I am of value: 1,2, 3, 4, <BR/>5,<BR/> 6,7, and especially zero, etc.<BR/>LaurelLaurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-34194193666195289012008-06-07T16:37:00.000-07:002008-06-07T16:37:00.000-07:00Hey everyone, I'm almost in the bayou, in Houma, L...Hey everyone, I'm almost in the bayou, in Houma, LA with Vicki visiting her brother and his wife. Refreshing cultural change without learning a new language. Because of the strong Roman Catholic influence on the Cajun culture I have met Southern Baptists in the last 24 hours who are non-religious and drink alcohol -- rather freely I might add. Will the day of wonders never cease? This would not happen on the Bible Belt Buckle. I guess we've gone South of the Bible Belt!<BR/><BR/>Great posts everyone. Thanks Robert and Laurel for your wise, insightful words. One dose of real experience really helps take the judgementalism out of us. It's so easy to generalize and judge issues and hypotheticals. But when we're looking at real people in real life in the eye, it puts a different spin on our idealism.<BR/><BR/>Joseph, I haven't been here since you posted about Debbie and your emotions. I ditto Laurel. We love you guys. You have our support and prayers.<BR/><BR/>At this point I can't access my email account. If anyone talks to me there and I don't answer, that is why.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67571297332839982992008-06-07T12:39:00.000-07:002008-06-07T12:39:00.000-07:00Laurel, where have you been all our (blog's) life?...Laurel, where have you been all our (blog's) life? I appreciate your input and can get some sense of why Billy married you... and you him.<BR/><BR/>Robert, I was helped by what you wrote also. Proximity without judgment--then truth without measure! Or something like that...Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-39407785225320734082008-06-07T09:57:00.000-07:002008-06-07T09:57:00.000-07:00When I went back to school 5 years ago, the Lord g...When I went back to school 5 years ago, the Lord gave me a mandate: this is such an imperious concept but it was more than a concept; the Lord's instructions acutally became an evagelistic tool. He instructed me to "glow in the dark, love people, hug people,smile at people,professors as well as students, be a friend when you can, and never be ashamed of who you are, but keep your mouth shut; make them beg. Whoever begs, gets the full story." Fellow students were drawn to me, and a few "beggars," both professors and students actually forced me to give my testimony, several have become dear friends. Love is so easy when it comes to loving those on the "outside," love only becomes a challenge among ourselves. There was a song that impacted me more than any other during my early days as a Christian; "They will know we are Christians by our love , by our love, they will know we are Christians by our love." Like a good post modern Christian I can't remember where this verse is but I think it is in the SEmron on the MOunt. I hope I am not an embarrassment to my husband, who, I am sure, knows exactly where this verse is located.<BR/>Robert, I think you are demostrating the power of this verse. No need to preach, just love. Love has a power of its own, let it speak for itself!!!!<BR/>I am so impressed with what you are doing.Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-68603017525072132302008-06-07T08:59:00.000-07:002008-06-07T08:59:00.000-07:00I deeply appreciate what your response reveals con...I deeply appreciate what your response reveals concerning your heart and wisdom, Robert. Thank you.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-14639092820656727632008-06-07T06:06:00.000-07:002008-06-07T06:06:00.000-07:00I totally agree Robert. I also liked the reference...I totally agree Robert. <BR/><BR/>I also liked the reference to Matt. 9:12-13. In the light of Jesus' statement that it is the sick that need a doctor, and his story about the shepherd who leaves the 99 sheep to go after the one lost sheep... why do we spend 90% of our time (if not 100%) with those who are at least relatively healthy?Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-65302428580613611652008-06-07T00:21:00.000-07:002008-06-07T00:21:00.000-07:00Being a late responder, I want to express apprecia...Being a late responder, I want to express appreciation for all wrestling with a significant topic.<BR/><BR/>Recent encounters with those in my sphere of influence make the subject ever so real. Professing Christians living together but not married with one about to deliver a precious life...she is not married. These are folks who respect me and welcome me with hugs. Something rises in me that suggests that I inform them...and then constraint that says love them where they are. If I judge them...I potentially lose the opportunity to speak to them when they are ready to ask questions. They are already dealing with conflict in their souls and likely experiencing conviction by the Holy Spirit. Do I pile it on or wait for the sacred moment when they ask "what should I do to be saved?" Because they acknowledge some suggestion of faith does not mean that they have understood what it truly means to be a follower Jesus. Until that happens, the subject of obeying His commands does not register. My options are to give answers to questions not being asked or waiting for timely moments when I intersect the Holy Spirit at work in their lives. After four decades of attempting to be faithful to the Gospel, I have pretty much concluded that giving answers to questions that aren't being asked produces little. Leading people to where they don't want to go doesn't work either. Loving people, praying for them...and being close when they ask the important questions is what has worked for me. Meanwhile, I have to struggle with when I am not saying enough. Did I miss an opportunity? <BR/><BR/>Matthew 9:12-13 speaks..."It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."<BR/><BR/>It was in the context of this setting that Jesus was reproved for his associations. I prefer to face the challenge of being slow to judge than walk away feeling good about myself because I have banged the gavel. I wonder what Whitfield would say after delivering the message "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." I have to ask myself if I lack courage...or does the current postmodern culture require a different response? <BR/><BR/>Now in the church where people clearly know better...that is another topic.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09536846888583909874noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-56478696057328880642008-06-06T16:38:00.000-07:002008-06-06T16:38:00.000-07:00thanks all: your prayers and encouragement are muc...thanks all: your prayers and encouragement are much appreciated ... I am living through something like a "perfect storm" where a number of issues have converged to make life complicated. Debbie has been doing her best to put a smile on my face today. its amazing that she is getting chemo, and she is the one encouraging me!<BR/><BR/>I'm off to South Beach with my son and another believing grad student to 'hang-out' with other graduate students. that ought to cheer me up...Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-76438648579111931582008-06-06T12:01:00.000-07:002008-06-06T12:01:00.000-07:00b52emmetGrace and peace to you both, Joseph and De...b52emmetGrace and peace to you both, Joseph and Debbie. You are deeply loved.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-47612395579680037532008-06-06T10:28:00.000-07:002008-06-06T10:28:00.000-07:00Joseph, You and Debbie are in our hearts. We comp...Joseph, <BR/>You and Debbie are in our hearts. We completely understand how the "unexpecteds" in our lives can sabotage the life, love, grace and peace of the Lord. <BR/>Don't be ashamed of being angry. You should be! Anger is a healthy response to what you are dealing with, but don't let it sap the strength you need to be there for Debbie. As long as you facilitate your anger you can ward off debilitating depression. God can handle our outrage and He is not intimidated by it. Our beloveds are worth a little outrage!<BR/>Please forgive me if I sound preachy, incensitive, or instructive, I am only wanting to identify with your "irreconcilable situation." <BR/>You two are heroes no matter what!!!!!!!Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-33790474190990792942008-06-06T10:15:00.000-07:002008-06-06T10:15:00.000-07:00I didn't find this yesterday, but am lifting your ...I didn't find this yesterday, but am lifting your name before the Lord as I write.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-62693548563092085952008-06-05T19:20:00.000-07:002008-06-05T19:20:00.000-07:00Leaving aside the topic of judgment for a moment, ...Leaving aside the topic of judgment for a moment, I would like to request prayer. My mood tends to track along with Deb's chemo schedule and energy level. She had chemo today and is quite fatigued tonight. I find myself reacting in anger to situations frequently and feeling rather discouraged--even depressed. I am having a hard time pulling out of the negativity.<BR/><BR/>thanksJoseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-63114529379967578402008-06-05T12:00:00.000-07:002008-06-05T12:00:00.000-07:00Thank you Steve, Brian, and John for thoughtful re...Thank you Steve, Brian, and John for thoughtful responses.<BR/>Theology, (judgement theology) is something that can bind us or grind us. Let's all endeavor not to judge which may constitute a "best practices" policy,and trust that each will warn the other when the signs of judgement may be emerging from our hearts. It is a difficult subject, one that leaves us intermanably introspective. <BR/>Jesus is the most brillant person I know. He is the only one who has the right to judge and will probably do much less of it than we think. <BR/>You are still welcome to visit my "confessions."Laurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-67967026378032744172008-06-04T19:09:00.000-07:002008-06-04T19:09:00.000-07:00Laurel,Welcome! John Meadows here in Lex. KY. Vic...Laurel,<BR/>Welcome! John Meadows here in Lex. KY. Vicki is my wife. We "know" each other from way back. Sadly, it's only a "knowing" from being in meetings together, although I've had a chance to know Billy on a slightly closer basis. I'm so glad to hear from you. You and Billy have my utmost respect. I haven't visited your blog yet, but I appreciate your willingness to share.<BR/><BR/>To everyone. I'll be out of town until June 14th. I may or may not have internet access. I'll see all of you when I can.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-84580735056359597032008-06-04T17:34:00.000-07:002008-06-04T17:34:00.000-07:00Hey, Laurel--Brian Emmet from Arlington, MA. I ju...Hey, Laurel--Brian Emmet from Arlington, MA. I just turned 56 in March! Thank you for the gift of your honesty and vulnerability. The death of your (former?) friend was clearly deeply painful; I have neither the desire nor ability to "judge" anything, and don't actually feel that any "judgment" is necessary. I'm grateful for your willingness to share this part of your story.Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-64181950919438692472008-06-04T15:29:00.000-07:002008-06-04T15:29:00.000-07:00I'm Steve Humble (Winchester, KY), Laurel. We've m...I'm Steve Humble (Winchester, KY), Laurel. We've met, but don't really know each other. I do appreciate the times I have been around your husband.<BR/><BR/>Thank you for the invitation to look into your heart and emotions through the blog. It was a bit like walking into a "holy place."<BR/><BR/>At this point I have no critique for you.<BR/><BR/>I know that grief (whether the grief of losing a friend because of conflict or because of death) is the most painful thing I have faced. To lose someone through death without being able to get reconciled from conflict has to complicate the pain and the grieving process exponentially.<BR/><BR/>I doubt that there are wrong feelings when it comes to grief -- there are simply feelings (most of them hurtful). Whether to express them or not and to whom and when could be different questions, but in a time of excruciating grief I didn't find myself much interested or able to evaluate those sorts of questions. I just had to deal with what I felt and what I said and whatever consequences came of them.<BR/><BR/>I know the Lord did not approve of everything I said. I also know that he did not condemn me. Neither did my family and true friends. However, there were a few who left the church here, in part at least because my wife and I grieved "too long" over our son's death. By God's grace, I don't hold it against them. All the same I would not now trust them the way I thought I could before.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-35400948591133569492008-06-04T12:38:00.000-07:002008-06-04T12:38:00.000-07:00I am fascinated by this discussion because I have ...I am fascinated by this discussion because I have always been one who endeavors to figure things out; whether it pertains to people or situations. I hope this is an attribute that reflects a desire for wisdom, but I fear that it is a reflection of my insecurities (of which there are many). It is probably a little of both.<BR/>Would you guys like a real live specimen with which to work out your opinions?<BR/>I will be the guinue pig. Recently, I lost a friend, or at least, I thought she was my friend, to cancer. I created a blog that would serve as a catharsis for those who felt they needed to vent after her death, but I also provided a private location for those who could not respond publically. Of course, this is not available. There were many who had unresolved issues with my friend. The blog illustrates some very interesting responses to my very raw and vulnerable discourse. Instead of using hypothetical situations and scripture as a foundation for your discussion, use my Confessions and angony as material; it may be a very fertile resource. I am not afraid of critism. One of my fears is that I wrote what I did because I judged her or that she judged me. If either one of us is guilty then our relationship was doomed with absolutely no chance for reconciliation. <BR/>You guys are using theology as a base for your discussions. I am providing the same kind of situation that is illustrated for us about the harlot whom Jesus asked, "where are your accusors?"<BR/>If you would like to accuse or excuse me after reading my blog, please let me know. <BR/>I keep dreaming about her. She was someone whom I loved very deeply.<BR/>If you are interested you can go to WWW.laurelsperspective.blogspot.comMine and other's comments are there for you to review and evaluate. Let me know if you have any trouble locating this blog.<BR/>Just Thinkling,<BR/>LaurelLaurel Longhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07311501139860462716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-8759377332967975802008-06-03T16:52:00.000-07:002008-06-03T16:52:00.000-07:00yes, yes, and yes...It seems to me that our cultur...yes, yes, and yes...<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that our culture reacts to judgment from the church because ... there is a lot of "krino" judgment in the church... with all the qualifiers and caveats we have appropriately identified in this discussion ... Jesus still said "don't do it." <BR/><BR/>But on the other hand, tolerance is a "pluralist" virtue... "live and let live" ... we can rise to a higher standard and beat the culture at its own game by choosing agape love rather than tolerance ... although I think there is valid place for tolerance ... such as tolerance of opposing political views in a democracy. Respect and/or civility are also good words ...<BR/><BR/>Tolerance means I basically ignore my young friends promiscuity and decide it is their business not mine ... agape means that I hurt for them and pray for them ... and actively work to build up the trust level with the hope that I might offer a word of counsel and healing at the appropriate moment. If the appropriate moment never arrives, I just pray for them and choose not to hold a negative, demeaning opinion of them. <BR/><BR/>I'm off to homestead to hang with the homies and practice agape love "which covers a multitude of sins" ....Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-10334227086567236982008-06-03T16:30:00.000-07:002008-06-03T16:30:00.000-07:00Joseph, how do you parse our culture's elevation o...Joseph, how do you parse our culture's elevation of "tolerance" as the highest form of virtue (accompanied by a concommitant reaction against anything and everything perceived as "judgment" or "being judgmental") with an appropriate commitment to practice, and then hopefully gain the opportunity to speak, the truth? Is it simply that Christians are perceived as being wildly inconsistent--e.g., hammering people for sexual sins but ignoring materialism, consumerism, etc.? Focusing on abortion but ignoring homelessness? Or does it go deeper?Brian Emmethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16119537229186664059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-36148215072885253722008-06-03T12:55:00.000-07:002008-06-03T12:55:00.000-07:00thanks John. Steve has particularly made a valuabl...thanks John. Steve has particularly made a valuable contribution. <BR/><BR/>I have talked way too much in this thread, probably because I have worked really hard on this in myself and have become very passionate about it. But let me add one more thing.<BR/><BR/>Edward Demming, the U.S. management guy who taught the Japanese "Total Quality Management" after World War II once said that in order to improve a system (thinking of business management systems) one must first analyze the system and fully understand it. <BR/><BR/>His second point is that one can never fully understand the system from the inside -- one must critically analyze from the outside. <BR/><BR/>Here is my point: this issue of Christian judgmentalism (or whatever you want to call the 'krino' judgment that Jesus discourages) looks VERY, VERY different from the outside, than it does from the inside. <BR/><BR/>From the inside, it is like the picture frame that hangs at a slight angle on the wall...after enough time passes, no one notices. But from the outside, it is a major "put-off" for secular people. And most insiders are not even aware of it or only dimly. <BR/><BR/>This was the same problem that Nicodemus and his friends had in Jesus' time. This was why Jesus basically told him in John 3, that where Jesus was going (in John 4), Nic could not follow without a profound paradigm shift.Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-60913557937949531382008-06-03T12:30:00.000-07:002008-06-03T12:30:00.000-07:00Hey, you all were able to have a great discussion ...Hey, you all were able to have a great discussion without me! Imagine that?!<BR/><BR/>I decided not to say anything because I got behind initially, and never really caught up with the discussion. When I did read comments, they were so well articulated I really didn't have anything to add. Besides that, I really wasn't in a "judgmental" mood.<BR/><BR/>Great job! <BR/>John M.John M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/17246946295254009203noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-66692307785082335882008-06-03T10:25:00.000-07:002008-06-03T10:25:00.000-07:00I think the Turner biography would be a blessing t...I think the Turner biography would be a blessing to Ed, Joseph. I found a 3 CD abridged version that was read by Kris Kristofferson. I enjoyed that so much that I bought the book.steve Hhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09636663818169138997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9073492877901726247.post-50553003190017544932008-06-03T09:52:00.000-07:002008-06-03T09:52:00.000-07:00hey Steve, your email was moving for me. I started...hey Steve, your email was moving for me. I started to respond earlier, before I left the house, but was interrupted by an IM conversation with a graduate student, who became my friend last year. She is in a foreign country on a research fellowship and was asking me for emotional support and prayer. I had a chance to share some good 'truth' with her ... all a fruit of what we are talking about in this discussion. <BR/><BR/>Which one of the Johnny Cash books would you recommend? I want to buy it for a friend of mine's birthday (Ed Biggs) in August ... he loves Johnny Cash.<BR/><BR/>I have more to say later about your heart cry for spiritual formation--and Jesus-centered virtue ... that is an extremely important topic!Joseph Holbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14444064378832759436noreply@blogger.com