Topics for discussion? (asking for directions)

ok ...

...no one is interested in talking about mission and evangelism, or the massive exit of young adults from the church. Its ok -- really -- it doesn't hurt ... at least not much ... Brian, please through in some gentle irony here ...

Let's open up a thread to take suggestions for topics for discussions ... what would YOU, dear blogger, like to talk about?

or have we talked about everything and run out of things to say? What think ye? Anybody know any good jokes?

What will we do about it?

hi all: I found the article below in Scott McKnight's Jesuscreed (now on belief.net). I want you to remember that I said this a couple of days ago, and I have been saying it for the last several years in this blog and by email ... I didn't get it from McKnight, or McLaren, or even Gallup or Barna. We can see it with our eyes if we look around. There is urgency about this. Sorry to start another discussion thread -- you can keep responding to the previous thread, but this allows me to insert a link:

What will we do about it?
...........
Research from a number of angles says the same thing: 20 somethings are not attending church. There is nothing less than a crisis in the church, a crisis that is far greater than most church folk know about and care to confront with the energies and focus that are needed. Here are the two facts:

1. The elderly people are exiting the church's back door.
2. The younger people are not entering the front door.

This means the numbers are declining. If something isn't done about it soon, the church will be facing a crisis in the next twenty years unlike anything the American church has ever seen. At a pragmatic level, it will mean a dramatic reduction in budgets ... I could go on. The more pressing issue is speaking the gospel to a new generation.

What will we do about it? Call for a conference. What are we doing about it?
............
jh

mission and evangelism

Ok, we seem to have run out of steam on the spiritual transformation topic, at least temporarily. When we discussed what needs to change in contemporary Christianity a couple of months ago, we came with 17 points that we later divided into roughly 3 areas. One of those areas we called ‘spiritual transformation’. Another one we called apostolic mission.

Lets switch over to that topic and discuss it. There were three points under apostolic mission. Here is what Sarah said:

“there needs to be greater missional engagement with the secular world”

Do you all agree with this? If yes, what are some practical ways that can happen? Are there any ideological or paradigmatic blinders that prevent us from properly engaging people in the world?

conversation on Ventrilo

ok, John and I are now on Ventrilo .... it is not all that hard to set up. Here are his instructions if you need help (especially in the middle of the night) give John (the Musician) a call:

786-395-2507I

so ... how can we use this tool for spiritual transformation? or just simply friendship? Also, is there anyone else we should include in this? Any suggestions about how we can use it or when we can all meet?

.....instructions........

1. Go to your local walmart or another equivalent store and buy a pair of headphones with a microphone. These usually run about 20 bucks depending on quality. Make sure they are for use with a computer, usually it will say that on the package.

2. Go to www.ventrilo.com, go to the "download" link on the left side, download the Ventrilo Client that best fits your operating system (most likely the first option for windows 2000 and newer)

3. Once you've download the client program and plugged in your headphones (headphone jacks are usually color coded as well as the computer jacks so you shouldn't have a problem there =OP) Open the Ventrilo program (you'll probably have an icon on your desktop.

4. Once you open Ventrilo you should see a couple options the answers are as follows:
>Click the arrow pointing to the right on the right side of the field "User Name"
>Click "New" and enter your user name into the pop-up (you can also enter a phonetic so that you can hear the name being said when logging into vent or switching channels)
>Click "Ok"
>Next click the arrow pointing right at the right side of the field entitled "Server"
>Click "New" and add the name that you want to call the server (i.e. Covthinklings)

>Next You'll fill out the "Hostname or IP" field with 66.228.127.220
then you'll fill out the "Port Number" field with
5013
and finally you'll fill out the "Password" field with
covthinklings1

>At this point all information needed should be filled out and you can simply press the "Connect" button on the right side of vent in order to connect to the server, there will be several different channels and you will see if there is anyone in one of the channels and you will be able to join in if you like. =O)

Tools for Transformation II: Repentance

As with humility, repentance can be easier to discuss or describe than to practice. But as we reflect together on how God works to shape us a whole persons in Christ, there's no avoiding repentance--and not just as a one-time event, but as a way of life. We can also confuse repentance with contrition, regret, or saying "sorry." Repentance embraces those, but is really about changing the way I think, feel and behave. So, what have you learned about repentance? Where and how has it been transformative in your own life? What makes it hard, and have you discovered some ways that make it "easier"... or even a joyful undertaking?

Tools for Transformation I: Humility

We want to focus our conversations on spiritual formation, and try to get down to some practicals and some specifics. To start, then, let's ask, What is humility--what does it actually look like, how does it "work" for you in practice? And as we "practice" humility, how does God's Spirit work to make us more like Jesus? Let's keep it as real as we can, even if that means discussing more of our failures than successes!



(IMAGE: Christ Washing the Feet of the Apostles by Meister des Hausbuches, 1475 Gemäldegalerie, Berlin)

Spiritual Formation, Digitized...?

OK, I admit I not sure I really get it, and I'm asking for help: how do you see digital technologies being powerful tools in the development of a new generation of Christ followers and Christ communities? Will virtual communities begin to replace traditional face-to-face gatherings, or enhance them? How might we use these technologies to disciple Christ followers or serve the poor? What might we gain when we no longer "open your Bibles to John 4:such-and-such" but instead have our faces lit by the glow of tiny individual screens on which the words appear? Are there any downsides to the increasing digitizing of more and more of life, and if so, how would you suggest Christ followers might guard against them? And Joseph, could you post a cool picture for this conversation?

‘wiki’ updates for the church - 17 theses summary

Ok… the ditty is now

♪♫ 17 theses to discuss on this thread…
17 theses to process!
take one down, discuss it all around,
16 theses to discuss on the blog….♫♪


1) there needs to be greater emphasis on spiritual formation (Joe -57).
2) there needs to be greater missional engagement with the secular world (Sarah -32).
3) there needs to be greater humility among Christians and respect for others(Sarah - 32).
4) there needs to be a deeper engagement with Scripture as God’s word (Brian -56).
5) there needs to be a deconstruction of church growth thinking: churches limited to under 250 people. Over that, churches should reproduce a daughter church (Brian -56). Move from church growth to church multiplication.
6) greater emphasis on “Real Church” as micro-church of 10 to 12. Big God parties less frequently (JohntheMusician - 23).
7) Repent of judging the lifestyles of outsiders (JohntheMusician - 23).
8) Greater focus on the role of the Holy Spirit (William - 20).
9) Move from a corporate model (with buildings) to a household/family/tribal model centered on the headship of Christ (William - 20).
10) Move to a 'kingdom' focus rather than a 'church' focus; a 'sowing'/scattering mentality rather than a gathering/building mentality. An 'outward' focus rather than inward (Joe - 57).
11) Eliminate badly composed, theologically vapid or erroneous "worship music." (Brian - 56).
12) All "senior leaders" (however defined) will have a grounding in all 2000+ years of church history (Course title: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly). (Brian - 56).
13) Congregations (however defined) will creatively and meaningfully celebrate (however defined)Palm Sunday, Holy Thursday, Good Friday, Holy Saturday and Easter Sunday (however named)every year, because these events are at the center of our faith (Brian - 56).
14) Greater emphasis on bi-vocational, tent-making ministry in local congregations and in apostolic mission (Patrick - 24) Pat: I reworded it for you in a less inflammatory way ;-) joe, the low-key guy
15) The Evangelical church needs to regain a proper, biblical appreciation for the apostolic and move from a primarily 'pastoral' mindset to a primarily 'apostolic' mindset (Joe - 57).
16) The "church" should cease being congregations primarily defined by "religious" meetings and "services rendered," and to return to our calling -- to be the people of God who manifest and proclaim the kingdom of God in our way of life together (Steve H.- 58)
17) every "church" (however defined) should have a poet-in-residence, along with one other non-musical artist-in-residence (Brian, the ironic poet - 56).


Memorable comments:
(John M. - 59) "The Evangelical Church would do well to make a constructively critical and intentional evaluation of it's understanding and practice of ecclesiology; understanding from the outset that radical reform may be indicated and that the current, popular structure of the church is not sacrosanct or absolute."

(Patrick: - 24) "I would recommend disbanding Sunday morning congregational meetings, breaking into groups no bigger than the size of your living room and begin building relationships with people 'in the world' start in small steps."
Meeting together in worship
Maturing together in discipleship
Missioning together for the harvest.

95 'wiki' theses for Reform?

Ok guys, here we go with another discussion thread. It seems to me that we have come to agreement, that while holding to the creeds and the whole history of the church, there is a need for ‘wiki’ reformational updating in the Evangelical wing of the church.

I mentioned 5 things I think need a ‘wiki’ updating in the last thread. In this discussion, lets come up with a comprehensive list of things that need reforming in the current U.S. Evangelical church. I’ll start with repeating one area I think that urgently needs to be reformed. Let's look for "change you can believe in." (ok, sorry, just kidding!)

I composed a little ditty for this discussion…

♪♫ 94 theses to post on this thread…
94 theses to post!
Write one down, discuss it all around,
93 theses to post on the blog….♫♪

(click below for musical accompaniment ... these guys remind me of us talking theology in our blog... or of me and John Meadows on our way to the Kansas City Shepherds conference with Frank Dawson in 1975!)

The 'wiki' nature of the church: Why not convert to Catholocism or Orthodoxy?

While there is a bit of a lull in the previous thread, i thought I would post a couple of paragraphs from a great post today by McKnight in jesuscreed. He is answering a letter from someone who is asking him if he admires the historic communsions (RCC and EO) why he does not go all the way and convert to one of them from evangelicalism. His response is classic ... I recommend that you go do jesuscreed.org and read the entire post ... It is called Why I am not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.

Here is a portion of his response:

"Third, the reason I think this way is seen in how Tradition plays itself out in each Church: for each of these communions the Tradition becomes massively authoritative and, in my view, each of these communions has become un-reformable. They read the Bible through Tradition and I believe in reading the Bible with Tradition. (my emphasis, not McKnight's)

And reformability is central to the “wiki” understanding of how God speaks: God spoke in the Bible in ongoingly fresh ways; that reveals the importance of returning to the roots in order to gain fire for the present. Return for reformation is the very essence of my “wiki” understanding of the Bible and of how God speaks.

I believe both the RCC and the EO, even with routine observations to the contrary by its adherents, are un-reformable.

I value, and value with profound respect, the great traditions of the Church, including Nicea and Chalcedon and Wittenberg and other moments as well. I check interpretation against these; but that does not mean I don’t think fresh light emerges or that something could be improved or modified (COMMENT: thats what I'm talking about! Let's have that conversation...)

Fifth, what this means — if you are still with me — is that I believe in ongoing discernment of what the Spirit is saying to the Church, and I believe this discernment is a function of church leaders and churches in communion with one another. Discernment for the day is different than infallible teaching for all time. Therein lies a major difference." (COMMENT: this 'discernment' is what I have been calling for along the lines of the Sons of Issachar...but there is a lot of pushback)